Why does God allow bad things happen to good people?

[Larry TN]

In an AA meeting in 1994, this question came up after a natural disaster levelled a church in the south and killed a number of members. I asked the group whether they believed that the devil existed... As it was with turning the devil loose on Job, we know we will have trials and tribulations. If we are what we say we are, we know that God will bring us out on the other side. If we are not as we say we are, then we deserve whatever we get. What kind of reward could you expect from serving satan?
The people who died in the church were supposed to be ready to meet the God they worshipped in the twinkling of an eye. The Christians near there were supposed to do as God commands, and they knew what was required of them.

"Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." -James 4:17

"Whatever you is, be that." -Clifton Chenier

[BlacktopTravelr]

Ok, why does a Loving God allow bad things to happen to (good) God loving people? Would you stand by and watch your kids get treated the way some God loving people are treated while God stands by and watches? No you wouldn't and neither should a loving God. Why create someone if you know that they will go thru hell on earth or that they will put someone thru hell on earth?

My question is a simple one. Why does God stand by and watch as a child or adult is raped, tortured and murdered? To me it does not make sense to say love your neighbor and then watch that neighbor rape, torture and murder someone. Of course you wouldn't actually watch the neighbor do those thing and you would have a hard time loving and forgiving them. But that is what we are asked to do as human being.

[BlacktopTravelr]

Answer the question about why a loving God stands by and watches his children harmed? Any loving father would do whatever it takes to make sure his children are not harmed in any way. How many of his children did God watch Hitler kill during WW II? One was too many if you ask me. I am having a hard time following what he says in the Bible with what he does. He says he loves his children, but then he stands by and watches the harm they go thru. My father or mother won't have done that. Either one would have done whatever it took to make sure I was safe and ok.

You like to bring up the part where it says we are born into sin, but God says that children are pure and blameless. You can't have it both ways. There are way too many things that just don't make sense once you sit down and start thinking about what God says and does. " He may be giving us something in our lives that is challenging, painful, hurtful, or devastating in order for us to learn from it" that quote is poppycock and you know it. God does not hand out punishment or pain in any shape form or fashion. He has supposedly given us the rules, the Bible, to follow and that is all he asks of us.

Now having said those things I do not in any way want someone to stop loving, trusting or believing in God because I have a hard time seeing him act like a loving God.

[Skree]

I'm not having it both ways. All people are born into sin. But, as you know, an infant child isn't aware of the sin they commit. There comes a point in the life of every living person that are aware of right and wrong. They sin willfully and they will be held accountable. God isn't punishing those who are truly unaware of sin. I can't give you a specific age, or time in a person's life where they automatically become accountable. That is God's responsibility as He is the only one who can know the thoughts of people. Rest assured though, those who die and are of pure mind and deed, will find rest with God.

I have always had difficulty with the Abrahamic-Judeo-Christian pronouncement that all people are born into sin. What sins have a new born child committed??


If it is a matter that your church/religion believes that all people will sin because it is predetermined, that - to me - is just nonsensical. Sins are determined by societal norms which change over the years. For any church to assume that all will sin is totally judgmental and one of the many reasons that I believe in neither gods nor religion. To voluntarily belong and believe in an organization that automatically judges all and believes you will commit actions or thoughts that go against the principles of that organization, just doesn't make any sense to me. The only reason for such a position by any organization is control through fear mongering. Just my opinion.

[Larry TN]

Keith, you are allowing yourself to be sucked in again. You have done enough, don't you think?

[BlacktopTravelr]

Keith, while this conversation is stimulating I don't think it will go far since I am set in my ways and have a hard time seeing God as a Loving God like he says he is in the bible. To me it doesn't matter whether he is a Heavenly father or an earth bound father if you love your kids you do everything possible to protect them from harm. The physical harm we do each other on earth will go away when we die. It is the way some of us die that bothers me so much and to have a loving father watch that go on just does not match up with the bible and it's teachings about God being a loving God. BTW I enjoyed your reply a few replies back.

[Larry TN]

Answer the question about why a loving God stands by and watches his children harmed? Any loving father would do whatever it takes to make sure his children are not harmed in any way. How many of his children did God watch Hitler kill during WW II? One was too many if you ask me. I am having a hard time following what he says in the Bible with what he does. He says he loves his children, but then he stands by and watches the harm they go thru. My father or mother won't have done that. Either one would have done whatever it took to make sure I was safe and ok.

You like to bring up the part where it says we are born into sin, but God says that children are pure and blameless. You can't have it both ways. There are way too many things that just don't make sense once you sit down and start thinking about what God says and does. " He may be giving us something in our lives that is challenging, painful, hurtful, or devastating in order for us to learn from it" that quote is poppycock and you know it. God does not hand out punishment or pain in any shape form or fashion. He has supposedly given us the rules, the Bible, to follow and that is all he asks of us.

Now having said those things I do not in any way want someone to stop loving, trusting or believing in God because I have a hard time seeing him act like a loving God.

You are talking about PHYSICAL harm. God is no respecter of persons, or it seems the physical body of persons. It is our soul that is the issue, I believe. Our parents could only set an example of how we might save our own soul, they cannot save us from hell nor keep us from heaven.

[BlacktopTravelr]

You are talking about PHYSICAL harm. God is no respecter of persons, or it seems the physical body of persons. It is our soul that is the issue, I believe. Our parents could only set an example of how we might save our own soul, they cannot save us from hell nor keep us from heaven.

I talk about a God that ignores what is happening to his children. If I get hurt PHYSICALLY like you say, then you can bet I'll have some questions for a so called Loving God that stood by and watched me get tortured when he could just as easily stopped it but didn't. How can I trust and love a God like that? The hurt that man does to man should never happen if we have a loving God.

[YoDude]

Oh dear! Tinker-toys anyone?

Yo-

[Larry TN]

[quote="BlacktopTravelr"
I talk about a God that ignores what is happening to his children. If I get hurt PHYSICALLY like you say, then you can bet I'll have some questions for a so called Loving God that stood by and watched me get tortured when he could just as easily stopped it but didn't. How can I trust and love a God like that? The hurt that man does to man should never happen if we have a loving God.[/quote]

All humans are not Gods children, some prefer the retirement plan of satan.

So if satan hurts you, you will ask God why? If God let satan mess with Job big time, why should we expect any better? Job had done nothing to deserve what satan did to him? I am no better than Job, and while I don't enjoy suffering, or the suffering of others, I know it will happen. It's just that I cannot question the methods of my Creator. Of course you may, if you like, let me know how it works out.

[BlacktopTravelr]

I give up. Larry Tn wants me to believe "All humans are not Gods children, some prefer the retirement plan of satan." And Keith says "God does not, and hasn't ever since He put Adam in the Garden, promise a pain free life." As for what Larry says, I don't believe that a single human born on earth was ever created by the devil. To me that means we are all children of God until he says we are not.

Keith do you know that Eve was not the first mate Adam was suppose to have? Lilith was the first choice of God to be with Adam but she would not take second place to Adam. Just how many rids did Adam have? Anyway, I will have my chance to ask God why he stood by while his children (the young and innocent children) suffered at the hands of others when he could have stopped it. But until then I will not question again why he stands by and watches while innocent people suffer when he could very easily stop that suffering. I'm out of this thread now.

[PCC]

We have been given what we need to know over and over in the Bible. Jesus was honest. He told us the truth. He said in John 16:33, “You will have suffering in this world.” He didn’t say you might – he said it is going to happen.

I cannot stand in the shoes of God and give a complete answer to why God allows bad things to happen. I don’t have God’s mind. I don’t see with God’s eyes. First Corinthians 13:12 says, “Now we see things imperfectly, like puzzling reflections in a mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely.”

In understanding why there is tragedy and suffering in our lives and in our world. We may not be able to make out all the peripheral details of why — they may be obscured from our view — but there are some key Biblical truths that can illuminate some points of light for us. And if we follow those lights, they will lead us in the right direction, toward some conclusions that I believe can help satisfy our hearts and souls.

I can say that with great study and thought I believe God is "not" the creator of evil and suffering.

We often hear: “Why didn’t God merely create a world where tragedy and suffering didn’t exist?” The answer is: He did! Genesis 1:31 says: “God saw all that he had made, and it was very good.”

But if God is not responsible for tragedy or evil or death, where did they come from?
Well, God has existed from eternity past as the Father, Son and Spirit, together in a relationship of perfect love. So love is the highest value in the universe. And when God decided to create human beings, he wanted us to experience love. But to give us the ability to love, God had to give us free will to decide whether to love or not to love. Why? Because love always involves a choice.
So in order for us to experience love, God bestowed on us free will. But unfortunately, we humans have abused our free will by rejecting God and walking away from Him. And that has resulted in the introduction of two kinds of evil into the world: moral evil and natural evil.

Moral evil is the immorality and pain and suffering and tragedy that come because we choose to be selfish, arrogant, uncaring, hateful and abusive. Romans 3:23 says “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”
So much of the world’s suffering results from the sinful action or inaction of ourselves and others. For example, people look at a famine and wonder where God is, but the world produces enough food for each person to have 3,000 calories a day. It’s our own irresponsibility and self-centeredness that prevents people from getting fed.

In other words: look at your hand. You can choose to use that hand to hold a gun and shoot someone, or you can use it to feed hungry people. It’s your choice. But it’s unfair to shoot someone and then blame God for the existence of evil and suffering.
The second kind of evil is called natural evil. These are things like wildfires, earthquakes, tornadoes and hurricanes that cause suffering for people. But these, too, are the indirect result of sin being allowed into the world. As some has explained: “When we humans told God to shove off, He partially honored our request. Nature began to revolt. The earth was cursed. Genetic breakdown and disease began. Pain and death became part of the human experience.”
The Bible says it’s because of sin that nature was corrupted and “thorns and thistles” entered the world. Romans 8:22 says, “We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.” In other words, nature longs for redemption to come and for things to be set right. That’s the source of disorder and chaos.
God did not create evil and suffering. Now, it’s true that he did create the potential for evil to enter the world, because that was the only way to create the potential for genuine goodness and love. But it was human beings, in our free will, who brought that potential evil into reality.

Some people ask, “Couldn’t God have foreseen all of this?” And no doubt he did. But look at it this way: many of us parents. Even before we had children, couldn’t we foresee that there was the very real possibility our children may suffer disappointment or pain or heartache in life, or that they might even hurt you and walk away from you? Of course — but we still had kids. Why? Because we knew there was also the potential for tremendous joy and deep love and great meaning.

Now, this analogy is far from perfect, but think about God. He undoubtedly knew we’d rebel against Him, but He also knew many people would choose to follow Him and have a relationship with Him and spend eternity in heaven with Him — and it was all worth it for that, even though it would cost His own Son great pain and suffering to achieve their redemption.

It helps me to remember, as we ponder the mystery of pain and evil, that God did not create them. The second point of light is this: Though suffering isn’t good, God can use it to accomplish good.

He does this by fulfilling His promise in Romans 8:28: “And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.”

Now the verse doesn’t say God causes evil and suffering, just that he promises to cause good to emerge. And notice that the verse doesn’t say we all will see immediately or even in this life how God has caused good to emerge from a bad circumstance. Remember, we only see things dimly in this world. And notice that God doesn’t make this promise to everyone. He makes the solemn pledge that he will take the bad circumstances that befall us and cause good to emerge if we’re committed to following Him.

The Old Testament is a example in the story of Joseph, who went through terrible suffering, being sold into slavery by his brothers, unfairly accused of a crime and falsely imprisoned. Finally, after a dozen years, he was put in a role of great authority where he could save the lives of his family and many others.

This is what he said to his brothers in Genesis 50:20: “You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives.” And if you’re committed to God, He promises that He can and will take whatever pain you’re experiencing and draw something good from it.

You might say, “No, he can’t in my circumstance. The harm was too great, the damage was too extreme, the depth of my suffering has been too much. No, in my case there’s no way God can cause any good to emerge.”

But if you doubt God’s promise, think about what happened... God took the very worst thing that has ever happened in the history of the universe — the death of God on the cross — and turned it into the very best thing that has happened in history of universe: the opening up of heaven to all who follow Him. So if God can take the very worst circumstance imaginable and turn it into the very best situation possible, can he not take the negative circumstances of your life and create something good from them?

I believe He can and He will. God can use our suffering to draw us to Himself, to mold and sharpen our character, to influence others for Him – He can draw something good from our pain in a myriad of ways…if we trust and follow Him.
The day is coming when suffering will cease and God will judge evil.
A lot of times you’ll hear people say: “If God has the power to eradicate evil and suffering, then why doesn’t He do it?” And I believe the answer is that because He hasn’t done it yet doesn’t mean He won’t do it. You know, If you picked up a novel and read only half of it and then slammed it down and said, “Well, that author did a terrible job with that book. There are too many loose ends with the plot. He didn’t resolve all the issues with the characters.” We could say, “Hey – you only read half the book!”

And the Bible says that the story of this world isn’t over yet. It says the day will come when sickness and pain will be eradicated and people will be held accountable for the evil they’ve committed. Justice will be served in a perfect way. That day will come, but not yet.

So we might ask what’s holding God up? One answer might be that some of you may be. He’s actually delaying the consummation of history in anticipation that some of you will still put your trust in Him and spend eternity in heaven. He’s delaying everything out of His love for you. Second Peter 3:9 says: “The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. To me, that’s evidence of a loving God, that He would care that much.

Our suffering will pale in comparison to what God has in store for his followers.

Not to minimize pain and suffering, but lets look at the verse written by the apostle Paul, who suffered through beatings and stoning and shipwrecks and imprisonments and rejection and hunger and thirst and homelessness and far more pain that most of us will ever have to endure. These are his words:

Second Corinthians 4:17: “For our light and momentary troubles” — wait a second: light and momentary troubles? Five different times his back was shredded when he was flogged 39 lashes with a whip; three times he was beaten to a bloody pulp by rods. But he says, “For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all.”
Paul also wrote Romans 8:18: “I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.”
So think of it this way. Let’s say that on the first day of 2014, you had an awful, terrible day. You had an emergency room visit and they could not give you any pain-killers. You wrecked your car on the way home and had no insurance. Your stock portfolio took a nosedive. Your spouse got sick. A friend betrayed you. From start to finish, it was a horrible day.
But then every other day of the year was just incredibly terrific. Your relationship with God is close and real and intimate. A friend wins the lottery and gives you a new motorcycle. You get promoted at work to a great job. You have your first child and he’s healthy and strong. Your marriage is idyllic, your health is fabulous, you have a six-month vacation in Europe.
Then next New Year’s Day someone asks, “So, how was your 2014?” You’d say, “It was great; it was wonderful!” And they’d say, “But didn’t it start out bad? Didn’t you go through a lot of trouble that first day?”

You’d think back and say, “You’re right. That was a bad day, no denying it. It was difficult at the time. It was hard. It was painful. But when I look at the totality of the year, when I put everything in context, it’s been a great year. The 364 terrific days far outweigh the one bad day. That day just sort of fades away.”

So maybe that’s a good analogy for heaven. That is not to deny the reality of your pain in this life. It might be terrible. It might be chronic and if they said, “But didn’t you have a tough time before you got here,” you’d probably think back and say, “Well, yes, it’s true that those days were painful, I can’t deny that. They were difficult, they were bad. But when I put them into context, in light of all God’s outpouring of goodness to me, those bad days aren’t even worth comparing with the eternity of blessings and joy that I’m experiencing.”

God promises a time when there will be no more crying, no more tears, no more pain and suffering, when we will be reunited with God in perfect harmony, forever. First Corinthians 2:9 says: “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him.”

We decide whether to turn bitter or turn to God for peace and courage.
We’ve all seen examples of how the same suffering that causes one person to turn bitter, to reject God, to become hard and angry and sullen, can cause another person to turn to God, to become more gentle and more loving and more tender, willing to reach out to compassionately help other people who are in pain. Some who lose a child to a drunk driver turn inward in chronic rage and never-ending despair; another turns outward to help others by founding Mothers Against Drunk Drivers.

As I remember one philosopher said: “I believe all suffering is at least potential good, an opportunity for good. It’s up to our free choice to actualize that potential. Not all of us benefit from suffering and learn from it, because that’s up to us, it’s up to our free will.”
We make the choice to either run away from God or to run to Him. But what happens if we run to Him?

If we go back to the part of what Jesus said in John 16:33. The whole verse... “I have told you these things so that in me you may have peace. You will have suffering in this world. But be courageous! I have conquered the world.”

So really he has offered us the two very things we need when we’re hurting: peace to deal with our present and courage to deal with our future. How? Because he has conquered the world! Through His own suffering and death, He has deprived this world of its ultimate power over you. Suffering doesn’t have the last word anymore. Death doesn’t have the last word anymore. God has the last word!

Someone told me once that: God’s ultimate answer to suffering isn’t an explanation; it’s the incarnation. Suffering is a personal problem; it demands a personal response. And God isn’t some distant, detached, and disinterested deity; He entered into our world and personally experienced our pain. Jesus is there in the lowest places of our lives. Are you broken? He was broken, like bread, for us. Are you despised? He was despised and rejected of men. Do you cry out that you can’t take any more? He was a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. Did someone betray you? He was sold out. Are your most tender relationships broken? He loved and He was rejected. Did people turn from you? They hid their faces from Him as if He were a leper. Does He descend into all of our hells? Yes, He does.
And then that same someone told me this: it’s not just that God knows and sympathizes with you in your troubles. Any close friend can do that. Any close friend can sit beside you and comfort you and empathize with you. No, Jesus is much closer than your closest friend. Because if you’ve put your trust in Him, then He is in you. And, therefore, your sufferings are His sufferings; your sorrow is His sorrow.

So when tragedy strikes, as it will; when suffering comes, as it will; when you’re wrestling with pain, as you will – and when you make the choice to run into His arms, here’s what you’re going to discover: you’ll find peace to deal with the present, you’ll find courage to deal with your future, and you’ll find the incredible promise of eternal life in heaven.

So what I am saying is that all of us will go through pain and suffering. In this sin-scarred world, we never know when death will come knocking. Often, we don’t get any warning so are we really ready?

So if tragedy were to strike, would your eternity with God would be secure. I don’t know all the ways God will do good from tragedies, but wouldn’t it be something if He were starting right now, with us personally, and using this moment to bring anyone of us into His kingdom at this very moment? I pray that He lets the pain of tragedy open our hearts to Christ. Take what was intended for evil and let us watch God start creating something good from it.
"That is our Loving God!"

Free Will Ladies and Gentleman... your choice.

[Larry TN]

I give up. Larry Tn wants me to believe "All humans are not Gods children, some prefer the retirement plan of satan." And Keith says "God does not, and hasn't ever since He put Adam in the Garden, promise a pain free life." As for what Larry says, I don't believe that a single human born on earth was ever created by the devil. To me that means we are all children of God until he says we are not.

Your confusion on these issues is possibly from a lack of knowledge of the Bible. God created some who turned away, and have not repented of their sin. They do not believe in Jesus Christ, and they are not what they once were, God's children. It's not that God says we are not His children, we say we are not. That free will thing that separates us from the pure instinct which wild animals use.
Pain is part of an existence in the flesh. Pain is also a defense mechanism designed to save us from a greater pain. After the first burn, scrape or blister, the child is a bit more careful.

[Larry TN]

Yep, what PCC said!

[RoadKing]

Bad things? They happen to everybody. Bad happens. Shit happens.

Good people? Good in whose eyes? We have ALL sinned in the eyes of God whether we are washed in The Blood or not.

Let me paraphrase your question, Keith. Why does good people shit smell as rank as bad people shit? Why would God allow such an indignity? Do you read me? Everybody's shit stinks and everybody dies... that's in the Bible. What happened at The Cross was God going through a worse hell than any of us will ever know. He became us, He died for us. He understands our suffering.

BUT!!! He gives us all good time blessings as well! Here's to the good times, the good things.

Di, you bring grace to the table. Please excuse my crudeness. I hope to meet you some day.

RK

[Skree]

Bad things? They happen to everybody. Bad happens. Shit happens.

Good people? Good in whose eyes? We have ALL sinned in the eyes of God whether we are washed in The Blood or not.

Let me paraphrase your question, Keith. Why does good people shit smell as rank as bad people shit? Why would God allow such an indignity? Do you read me? Everybody's shit stinks and everybody dies... that's in the Bible. What happened at The Cross was God going through a worse hell than any of us will ever know. He became us, He died for us. He understands our suffering.

BUT!!! He gives us all good time blessings as well! Here's to the good times, the good things.

Di, you bring grace to the table. Please excuse my crudeness. I hope to meet you some day.

RK

Does the presence, or lack there of, of a god change the amount of shit that people go through on a regular basis??

[Larry TN]

Does God allow bad things to happen to good people?

[MadCow]

It's simple why God allows bad things to happen to good people.

We have the ability to choose.

What kind of life would we have if God controlled everything...made all our decisions for us? Wouldn't life be then...incredibly pointless?

[Larry TN]

It's simple why God allows bad things to happen to good people.

We have the ability to choose.

What kind of life would we have if God controlled everything...made all our decisions for us? Wouldn't life be then...incredibly pointless?

You may want to direct that question to our paranoid federal government. Or any government, for that matter. We would be deaf, dumb and blind robots, in either case. It wouldn't be a life.

[Fred]

There is no god thats why god allows bad things to happen, he doesnt exist and niether does alla or the crocodile god of Peru and the big susa god that lives on the mountain. Muslims get fried up on Saudi Arabia plane while going to Mecca just because they is no Alla Oh wash my mouth out I said Alla or Mohamed, ---nope-- no bolts of lightening so far.

If it wasn't for naive in-secure people looking to god we could have stem cell research years ago and abortion because sometimes its needed. If abortion is murder than a blow job is cannibalism.

If people stood on thier own 2 feet and not relied on some book of 2000 years ago we could have a better life. I do not believe in any god . My religion is ME and I do not steal of anyone . The reason I write this is to help you. You are going no where when you die,-- no where.

Switzerland is 95% atheist,-- no one gets shot. Show me a religious country and Ille show you nievity and mayhem with murder and constant retribution and I include Northern Island in that.