My Resurrection Thread

[ncdave]

Why is because any fluid should pass right through that Unclogged hole and be sucked down through the Line. Could it be you have a Collapsed/Blocked Hydraulic Line?

I disconnected the line at the master cylinder and at the slave cylinder. I also disconnected it at the mid-point under the seat. I blew air through both of the sections to be sure it was clear.

I have disconnected the line directly at the master cylinder and tried squeezing the lever to get fluid to come out. nothing happening. I'm sure the problem has to be there. (I think)

[ncdave]

the nice part of working from home this week.....I ran out to the garage to tinker. I got a thread off a wire brush and was able to poke through the smaller hole and got some bubbles to appear through. I'm going to take it back apart and tinker a bit more to be sure it's open as much as possible, then I'll try bleeding it again. we'll see how it goes.

[Designer]

Why is because any fluid should pass right through that Unclogged hole and be sucked down through the Line. Could it be you have a Collapsed/Blocked Hydraulic Line?

I disconnected the line at the master cylinder and at the slave cylinder. I also disconnected it at the mid-point under the seat. I blew air through both of the sections to be sure it was clear.

Good work there.

......I have disconnected the line directly at the master cylinder and tried squeezing the lever to get fluid to come out. nothing happening. I'm sure the problem has to be there. (I think)

So Dave, let me fully understand. When you did this, did the Piston move freely? Assuming there was plenty of fluid in the Reservoir, did you get a little "geyser" of fluid coming up and out of the Large Hole before the Piston Seal moved past it?

[ncdave]

So Dave, let me fully understand. When you did this, did the Piston move freely? Assuming there was plenty of fluid in the Reservoir, did you get a little "geyser" of fluid coming up and out of the Large Hole before the Piston Seal moved past it?

not much movement at all from the fluid. initially I had a few bubbles coming out, but eventually the piston was just moving back and forth with no "action" anywhere in the system. I could not get it to pump fluid out through the bolt hole for the line, nor did I see any further bubbles or a geyser.

[hillsy v2]

Syringe. Reverse bleed.

Look it up on YouTube.

Just saying....

[Designer]

So Dave, let me fully understand. When you did this, did the Piston move freely? Assuming there was plenty of fluid in the Reservoir, did you get a little "geyser" of fluid coming up and out of the Large Hole before the Piston Seal moved past it?

not much movement at all from the fluid. initially I had a few bubbles coming out, but eventually the piston was just moving back and forth with no "action" anywhere in the system. I could not get it to pump fluid out through the bolt hole for the line, nor did I see any further bubbles or a geyser.

Hmmm,.,.. So it sounds like you have goodly amount of Master Cylinder Piston movement, but no Fluid Pressure that would be created by The Piston moving,....is that correct? :space; If so,. it seems to me that no amount t of Bleeding will beget the results you need.

Since you have cleaned Both of the Two Bottom Holes of the Reservoir, and you have Cleaned nd Air-Blown out all the Hydraulic Lines, the lack of Fluid Pressure at the End of the Master Cylinder... (where the Banjo bolt/Hydraulic Line bolts to) ...seems to indicate that the Piston Seals are not doing their job. Does this make sense with all you report?

[ncdave]

so, here's a couple pics. first is the assembly line how I installed everything. I took care to be sure the rings were pointing the correct direction.

the second pic is the MC which you can see that both holes are clean and open. I've been able to blow air through both of them.

it seems like the piston is initially trying to move fluid into the cylinder but is not able to build pressure enough to push it past the ring that is by the spring. as you say, not building pressure. fluid is not leaking back through the washer and circlip to the rubber boot there. it kinda seems like it's just holding the fluid between the two rubber gaskets and not pushing it any further.

[sgtcall]

Just a thought, what about the Banjo Bolt? Was it new? If it is the old one is it clear?

[ncdave]

note though, the rebuild kit for the slave cylinder was all balls. the kit for the master was K&L. I may go back and buy the all balls kits for the master. That's about the only other thing I can think of that may be wrong.

[ncdave]

Just a thought, what about the Banjo Bolt? Was it new? If it is the old one is it clear?

it's clear and clean. but note that right now I have the banjo bolt out and it's still not moving any fluid out the end of the master.

[Designer]

Thanks for the Pictures! This is obviously not a Bleeding issue.

The Seal you see against the Return Springs is the Pressure Seal. In normal operation, this seal is pushed back inside the Bore past both little holes ( that you cleaned out) . Then, when you actuate the Lever, the Piston moves Forward, pushing the Fluid as it goes. Before the Pressure Seal gets past the bigger Hole, you'll see that little "geyser" of fluid I mentioned earlier. Have you ever seen this geyser?

If not, I have suspicions about the integrity of is Pressure Seal and/or the Bore being scratched enough as to undo any pressure this Seal created.

Your Thoughts?

[navigator]

For bleeding, try this:
Fill the MC, pull the clutch lever slowly about 1" to purge the air, then release...you should see micro bubbles from the small hole.
repeat about 1000 times to release all air before pulling the lever all the way.
(well, maybe not 1000)

[ncdave]

Thanks for the Pictures! This is obviously not a Bleeding issue.

The Seal you see against the Return Springs is the Pressure Seal. In normal operation, this seal is pushed back inside the Bore past both little holes ( that you cleaned out) . Then, when you actuate the Lever, the Piston moves Forward, pushing the Fluid as it goes. Before the Pressure Seal gets past the bigger Hole, you'll see that little "geyser" of fluid I mentioned earlier. Have you ever seen this geyser?

If not, I have suspicions about the integrity of is Pressure Seal and/or the Bore being scratched enough as to undo any pressure this Seal created.

Your Thoughts?

no geyser. I'll get my scope and have a closer look inside. to the eye, it appears to be ok, but you never know.

[hillsy v2]

You've got the MC seals and piston in the right way.

Connect everything up and bleed with your mityvac or a syringe. It will be OK.

[ncdave]

so the weather here in NC finally broke in our favor, so I had an opportunity to try the bleeding again. Put the master back together and still no luck in getting it to bleed. I separated the line under the tank and tried pouring in some brake fluid from the other end. still not getting any success. I went ahead and ordered a syringe from the internet. I'm going to try filling it from the bottom up and see if I can prime the system to get fluid moving. More to come on that.

my carbs are still in the shop. guy says he's still having problems getting one of the slides freed up. Says he's got a few other tricks to try. if this doesn't work I will have to try to find a decent used one.

[Designer]

so the weather here in NC finally broke in our favor, so I had an opportunity to try the bleeding again. Put the master back together and still no luck in getting it to bleed.

From this it seems that when you... connect everything up and bled it with your mityvac, things did not turn out to ..."be okay". Since you have already done pretty much that before, that's kinda-sorta what I thought would happen.

Tell me, did you perform a Master Cylinder Pressure Test? By that, I mean, did you disconnect the Banjo Fitting, put your finger over the Exit Hole, and move the Lever? ( with fluid in the Reservoir, of course) .

...... I separated the line under the tank and tried pouring in some brake fluid from the other end. still not getting any success. I went ahead and ordered a syringe from the internet. I'm going to try filling it from the bottom up and see if I can prime the system to get fluid moving. More to come on that.

I had thought that when you took Air Pressure and blew out the line, that such resistance to Fluid flow wouldn't have happened! Wouldn't the results you just posted indicate the possibility of some sort of Blockage In The Line itself?

Though it is not common, I have seen reported that the Flexible Part of the Stock Hydraulic Lines can delaminate internally and collapse, thus causing blockage. Perhaps yours is doing that enough so that High Pressure Air allows for passage, but Low Pressure Bleeding does not?

..............my carbs are still in the shop. guy says he's still having problems getting one of the slides freed up. Says he's got a few other tricks to try. if this doesn't work I will have to try to find a decent used one.

Thanks for the Carb Update. Am looking forwards to seeing you RIDE!

[hillsy v2]

Do yourself a favour and wrap some plumbers / thread tape around the threads of the bleed nipple on the slave. Your MityVac / syringe will pull air past the threads and you will think it's coming out of the slave.

PS: if you can blow compressed air through the hose it's highly unlikely the rubber parts are delaminated. You just have air in the MC and you need to bleed it out.

[navigator]

Do yourself a favour and wrap some plumbers / thread tape around the threads of the bleed nipple on the slave. Your MityVac / syringe will pull air past the threads and you will think it's coming out of the slave.

PS: if you can blow compressed air through the hose it's highly unlikely the rubber parts are delaminated. You just have air in the MC and you need to bleed it out.

^^This
For bleeding, try this:
Fill the MC, pull the clutch lever slowly about 1" to purge the air, then release...you should see micro bubbles from the small hole.
repeat about 1000 times to release all air before pulling the lever all the way.
(well, maybe not 1000)

[ncdave]

Thanks for the posts and ideas guys. I got my syringe in the mail. actually 6 of them. I should be set for a loooooooong time!

I filled the syringe and attached with hose to the bleed valve on the bottom. I loosened the banjo bolt at the top. squeezed about 40ml into the system and had a bit of dribble out of the top. at that point the system would not allow me to put further fluid through the bleed valve. at that point I got frustrated and decided to take apart the clutch cover on the opposite side. There was a bit of sludge that came out of the oil drain, but for the most part it appeared to be good oil. when I took the cover off, the gasket there looks in very good shape. I suspect someone has been down this path.

pulled the clutch apart to take a look at the pads and discs. they are in good shape. I suspect someone has replaced them. but with only 6000 miles on them, it's difficult to tell for sure. When I pull the parts off the bike, I carefully place all bolts in order on the floor to be sure I put things back together properly. I'm pretty sure the previous person didn't have them in the correct order alternating the long and short bolts. I put it all back together. I did not tighten down the slave cylinder on the block. I will try filling it again before I snug things down, only putting enough pressure on the bolts so that they will hold the cylinder in place and keep it from popping out.

keep fingers crossed. I'm not giving up yet.

Still no carbs yet.

[Designer]

..I filled the syringe and attached with hose to the bleed valve on the bottom. I loosened the banjo bolt at the top. squeezed about 40ml into the system and had a bit of dribble out of the top. at that point the system would not allow me to put further fluid through the bleed valve.....

So, to review what We have now....... You did what was suggested on the previous Page, the Hydraulic Line was basically dry, you put 40 ml in at the bottom,.... But that didn't work,.....the System would not take any more fluid?
The Line itself,...being loosened from the Master at the Banjo Bolt, .....would not allow more fluid in?
How long did it take to to push the fluid in? Did go quickly or take a bit of Time/Effort?

Back to the Master Cylinder issue(s) . Here's what you just posted:

Any hints on getting the clutch system primed so I can bleed it? Went through the process in the Clymer manual but no luck. I have the line bolt out of the master and can't even get fluid to push out.

This is quite a puzzlement. I do recall you posting this recently;

So Dave, let me fully understand. When you did this, did the Piston move freely? Assuming there was plenty of fluid in the Reservoir, did you get a little "geyser" of fluid coming up and out of the Large Hole before the Piston Seal moved past it?

not much movement at all from the fluid. initially I had a few bubbles coming out, but eventually the piston was just moving back and forth with no "action" anywhere in the system. I could not get it to pump fluid out through the bolt hole for the line, nor did I see any further bubbles or a geyser.

So I reiterate what I posted in response to this;

Hmmm,.,.. So it sounds like you have goodly amount of Master Cylinder Piston movement, but no Fluid Pressure that would be created by The Piston moving,....is that correct? :space; If so,. it seems to me that no amount t of Bleeding will beget the results you need.

Since you have cleaned Both of the Two Bottom Holes of the Reservoir, and you have Cleaned nd Air-Blown out all the Hydraulic Lines, the lack of Fluid Pressure at the End of the Master Cylinder... (where the Banjo bolt/Hydraulic Line bolts to) ...seems to indicate that the Piston Seals are not doing their job. Does this make sense with all you report?

Seems something is amiss with the Hydraulic Line that Restricts/Stops Fluid flow that the suggested mere bleeding only does not overcome,...does it not?

.......keep fingers crossed. I'm not giving up yet.

You're doing FINE. Admittedly, you have a persistent and puzzling problem with the Clutch Hydraulics, but keep on working,...it's worth it.

.Still no carbs yet.

How about the Tank?