THOUGHTS

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Re: THOUGHTS

Post by Tbeck »

Good to see revisionism is still alive and kicking..... Just more proof that if you say something people want to hear they'll buy it.

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Re: THOUGHTS

Post by KAJUN »

RoadKing wrote:
wally w wrote:Civil War? We'll need uniforms otherwise one could accidently kill a good guy with a gun.
Nope. Gonna keep trying here... in the next civil war the bad guy will be the one trying to eat your food and steal your home.



But it will bring families a lot closer to each other [emoji106]
The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.

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Re: THOUGHTS

Post by KAJUN »

jeffcoslacker wrote:
Designer wrote:Sorry but,...by definition,...what Japan did In Alaska WAS an invasion.


The Japanese didn't think we'd defend them as capably as we did and cede the territory, and when we fought for it they gave up on the idea, which originally was to see if they could enhance their control of shipping in the Northern Pacific using Attu and another island as bases. But it was a half-hearted effort for an objective that was ultimately not that important to them at the time.

The goal was to gain control over shipping routes.



let's clarify a bit of history here OK...and settle the reasons for the invasion of Alaska..aka American soil

The invasion of the two islands,Attu and Kiska, by a sizable Japanese naval force was a diversionary force intended to draw whatever American naval forces were available at the time to defend those islands...aka American soil....

The real battle took place near another two islands, Sand and Eastern islands, in the Pacific theater ..namely the Midway Atoll
The Japanese were hoping that American naval forces would be drawn to battle in the Aleutians clearing the way for a total victory Japanese on Midway Atoll ...They were foiled by intelligence based at Pearl Harbor.....Using just the term "AF" ... US intelligence came to the conclusion that Midway Atoll would be the next target of the Japanese navy ..they were right and led to the decisive turning point in the war against Japan....
.The Japs lost four aircraft carriers to our one sealing their fate forever in the Pacific....
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Re: THOUGHTS

Post by jeffcoslacker »

KAJUN wrote:
jeffcoslacker wrote:
Designer wrote:Sorry but,...by definition,...what Japan did In Alaska WAS an invasion.


The Japanese didn't think we'd defend them as capably as we did and cede the territory, and when we fought for it they gave up on the idea, which originally was to see if they could enhance their control of shipping in the Northern Pacific using Attu and another island as bases. But it was a half-hearted effort for an objective that was ultimately not that important to them at the time.

The goal was to gain control over shipping routes.



let's clarify a bit of history here OK...and settle the reasons for the invasion of Alaska..aka American soil

The invasion of the two islands,Attu and Kiska, by a sizable Japanese naval force was a diversionary force intended to draw whatever American naval forces were available at the time to defend those islands...aka American soil....

The real battle took place near another two islands, Sand and Eastern islands, in the Pacific theater ..namely the Midway Atoll
The Japanese were hoping that American naval forces would be drawn to battle in the Aleutians clearing the way for a total victory Japanese on Midway Atoll ...They were foiled by intelligence based at Pearl Harbor.....Using just the term "AF" ... US intelligence came to the conclusion that Midway Atoll would be the next target of the Japanese navy ..they were right and led to the decisive turning point in the war against Japan....
.The Japs lost four aircraft carriers to our one sealing their fate forever in the Pacific....
I cannot see any way that the assets in place in the South Pacific would have been affected or re-allocated in the least by an operation of that size. As I said, conditions were hostile, both weather-wise and logistically, and would only get worse with proximity to the mainland, while our reach and the ease of our exploiting it would increase exponentially each step of the way. 1500 sounds like a lot of people...with regards to trying to hold onto territory and create any kind of infrastructure there, it's a joke.

A lot of the "naval force" mentioned were merchant supply ships and navy oilers and things of that nature...not really much of a fighting force. Hardly enough to make things livable on the island, if you read some stuff about the conditions they faced there.

We were putting down a force to get the Japanese off Kiska about the same time of the battle of Midway...so I'm a bit confused about its use as a ruse. They had already been there about a year at that point. When we got there, they were already gone. The island had been abandoned. I'll have to look more closely into dates and relationships between those two events.

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Re: THOUGHTS

Post by Herb »

KAJUN wrote:
jeffcoslacker wrote:
Designer wrote:Sorry but,...by definition,...what Japan did In Alaska WAS an invasion.


The Japanese didn't think we'd defend them as capably as we did and cede the territory, and when we fought for it they gave up on the idea, which originally was to see if they could enhance their control of shipping in the Northern Pacific using Attu and another island as bases. But it was a half-hearted effort for an objective that was ultimately not that important to them at the time.

The goal was to gain control over shipping routes.



let's clarify a bit of history here OK...and settle the reasons for the invasion of Alaska..aka American soil

The invasion of the two islands,Attu and Kiska, by a sizable Japanese naval force was a diversionary force intended to draw whatever American naval forces were available at the time to defend those islands...aka American soil....

The real battle took place near another two islands, Sand and Eastern islands, in the Pacific theater ..namely the Midway Atoll
The Japanese were hoping that American naval forces would be drawn to battle in the Aleutians clearing the way for a total victory Japanese on Midway Atoll ...They were foiled by intelligence based at Pearl Harbor.....Using just the term "AF" ... US intelligence came to the conclusion that Midway Atoll would be the next target of the Japanese navy ..they were right and led to the decisive turning point in the war against Japan....
.The Japs lost four aircraft carriers to our one sealing their fate forever in the Pacific....
There was also the Japanese fear that we would use the Aleutian islands as a staging base for an invasion of Japan and Japan thought they might use them as a foothold to invade the mainland. However, the losses at Midway forced them to withdraw from the Aleutian Islands because they no longer had the resources to support them or invade the mainland.

I read an article a few years ago about the use of an Alaskan force of the native people and how in the first part of the battle the regular troops were nowhere near properly attired, they were very ineffectual. The native troop was attired in their own clothing and using, mostly, their own hunting rifles were the main driving force of the attack.

One other thing, when they invaded the islands, they took over 40 American citizens prisoner.

The native people of the Aleutian Islands were originally known as the Unangan. Russian fur traders who arrived in the region in the mid-18th century renamed them the Aleuts. In 1942, after the Japanese took Attu, the island’s population of some 40 Aleuts were taken prisoner.
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Re: THOUGHTS

Post by Tbeck »

Well I guess that submarine based Japanese bomb plane didn't really attack in Oregon, and the Canadian and US government didn't really build the Alaskan highway out of fear for a Japanese attack.
Who knew,......

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Re: THOUGHTS

Post by jeffcoslacker »

Tbeck wrote:Well I guess that submarine based Japanese bomb plane didn't really attack in Oregon, and the Canadian and US government didn't really build the Alaskan highway out of fear for a Japanese attack.
Who knew,......
Dropped two incindiaries in the woods....they sure got their money's worth outta that operation. Just think, if they'd had maybe a few hundred subs with a seaplane, they coulda burned down a good portion of a state park. Then an invasion would just be a walk-through...

Sarcasm aside. The original postulation was that they didn't invade because civilians had guns. Are we any closer to admitting this is complete bollocks or what?

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Re: THOUGHTS

Post by hillsy »

jeffcoslacker wrote: The original postulation was that they didn't invade because civilians had guns. Are we any closer to admitting this is complete bollocks or what?
Probably not because it suits the agenda of the gun rights lobby.

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Re: THOUGHTS

Post by jeffcoslacker »

hillsy wrote:
jeffcoslacker wrote: The original postulation was that they didn't invade because civilians had guns. Are we any closer to admitting this is complete bollocks or what?
Probably not because it suits the agenda of the gun rights lobby.
I'm all for gun rights...I just wanna know about the staying on point in a discussion lobby...

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Re: THOUGHTS

Post by hillsy »

jeffcoslacker wrote:
hillsy wrote:
jeffcoslacker wrote: The original postulation was that they didn't invade because civilians had guns. Are we any closer to admitting this is complete bollocks or what?
Probably not because it suits the agenda of the gun rights lobby.
I'm all for gun rights...I just wanna know about the staying on point in a discussion lobby...
Yeah, well threads meander all over the place on this board it seems. Especially when the subject matter is controversial.

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Re: THOUGHTS

Post by Tbeck »

Not controversial, just total BULLSHIT.

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Re: THOUGHTS

Post by hillsy »

Tbeck wrote:Not controversial, just total BULLSHIT.
The SUBJECT matter is controversial, but the ANGLE is pure bullshit [emoji106]

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Re: THOUGHTS

Post by Designer »

In conclusion,....we have seen the facts have proven this wrong:
hillsy wrote: Japan never had any intention of invading the US in WW2 - they were only interested in securing the Pacific trade routes.
Designer wrote:Sorry but,...by definition,...what Japan did In Alaska WAS an invasion.

Merriam-Webster: Definition of invasion
1 : an act of invading; especially : incursion of an army for conquest or plunder
KAJUN wrote: Aleutian Islands Campaign
On June 6, two days after the bombing of Dutch Harbor, 500 Japanese marines landed on Kiska, one of the Aleutian Islands of Alaska...The next day, a total of 1,140 Japanese infantrymen landed on Attu via Holtz Bay, eventually reaching Massacre Bay and Chichagof Harbor...The invasion was only the second time that American soil had been occupied by a foreign enemy, the first being the British during the War of 1812.
KAJUN wrote: let's clarify a bit of history here OK...and settle the reasons for the invasion of Alaska..aka American soil..... The invasion of the two islands,Attu and Kiska, by a sizable Japanese naval force .....
Herb wrote:One other thing, when they invaded the islands, they took over 40 American citizens prisoner.

Image



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Re: THOUGHTS

Post by hillsy »

Designer wrote:In conclusion,....we have seen the facts have proven this wrong:
hillsy wrote: Japan never had any intention of invading the US in WW2 - they were only interested in securing the Pacific trade routes.
Designer wrote:Sorry but,...by definition,...what Japan did In Alaska WAS an invasion.

Merriam-Webster: Definition of invasion
1 : an act of invading; especially : incursion of an army for conquest or plunder
KAJUN wrote: Aleutian Islands Campaign
On June 6, two days after the bombing of Dutch Harbor, 500 Japanese marines landed on Kiska, one of the Aleutian Islands of Alaska...The next day, a total of 1,140 Japanese infantrymen landed on Attu via Holtz Bay, eventually reaching Massacre Bay and Chichagof Harbor...The invasion was only the second time that American soil had been occupied by a foreign enemy, the first being the British during the War of 1812.
KAJUN wrote: let's clarify a bit of history here OK...and settle the reasons for the invasion of Alaska..aka American soil..... The invasion of the two islands,Attu and Kiska, by a sizable Japanese naval force .....
Herb wrote:One other thing, when they invaded the islands, they took over 40 American citizens prisoner.

Image



[emoji41]
All these were diversions to try and keep the US out of the Asia Pacific for as long as possible. Japan's idea was to control the trade lanes and cut the US off with the hope they would eventually surrender. Didn't work, but the intention was NEVER to invade the US proper.

They also knew that it would take about 6 weeks to land forces on the West coast of the US but the US could mobilise its forces from the East to the West coast far quicker - hence starting a long ground battle which was, again, not what they were after.

The idea that they didn't invade because the citizens had guns is just laughable.

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Re: THOUGHTS

Post by Tbeck »

You're wrong hillsy.

In fact there was a Japanese plan to invade Canada and the US. They did invade in numerous places and that means your entire assertion is BS.
This isn't because I say so, it's because the historical record's do. Look into it yourself.
You should simply concede this fight, you lost. Walk away having learned a little something you didn't know.

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Re: THOUGHTS

Post by hillsy »

Tbeck wrote:You're wrong hillsy.

In fact there was a Japanese plan to invade Canada and the US. They did invade in numerous places and that means your entire assertion is BS.
This isn't because I say so, it's because the historical record's do. Look into it yourself.
You should simply concede this fight, you lost. Walk away having learned a little something you didn't know.
Depends on what and where you read your history, I suppose. I don't know 100% like you seem to do because I wasn't there.

There is plenty of historical evidence to say the Japanese were only really interested in the Asia Pacific, not the US mainland. However, if they were dominant then no doubt the US would have been a future target, but at that time it wasn't going to happen.

Ultimately we can all agree that the reason not to invade was NOT because they feared the citizens were armed.

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Re: THOUGHTS

Post by Herb »

hillsy wrote:
Tbeck wrote:You're wrong hillsy.

In fact there was a Japanese plan to invade Canada and the US. They did invade in numerous places and that means your entire assertion is BS.
This isn't because I say so, it's because the historical record's do. Look into it yourself.
You should simply concede this fight, you lost. Walk away having learned a little something you didn't know.
Depends on what and where you read your history, I suppose. I don't know 100% like you seem to do because I wasn't there.

There is plenty of historical evidence to say the Japanese were only really interested in the Asia Pacific, not the US mainland. However, if they were dominant then no doubt the US would have been a future target, but at that time it wasn't going to happen.

Ultimately we can all agree that the reason not to invade was NOT because they feared the citizens were armed.
No, we cannot agree that they didn't invade the mainland because of the arms in the hands of the people because we don't know for sure that this didn't make a difference.

I CAN guarantee that if they had chosen to invade it would have proved VERY costly and they would have been in major trouble. Probably would have never made it past the first set of mountain ranges.
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Re: THOUGHTS

Post by Tbeck »

hillsy the Japanese attack at Pearl was due to the USA stopping it's supply of oil to Japan due to Japan's action's in China, and throughout the Asian Pacific region. However Japan had become a modernized military power with ambition.
They did in fact have plans prepared for a North American invasion, and did engage in several attacks as previously noted. It was a serious enough threat to convince Canada and the USA to build the Alaskan highway in 8 months during 1942. An idea previously disapproved by Canada.
It was the destruction of the Japanese navy at Midway and subsequent operations that made that plan obsolete.
Those are the historical facts as written by ALL of the parties involved, USA, Canada, AND Japan. So if you're reading something different, what you are reading is BS.

It had nothing to do with Americans being armed. However an armed population would have prevented the Japanese from gaining a foothold in North America.

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Re: THOUGHTS

Post by Tbeck »

Herb, actually the Japanese plan was very specific about how and where the invasion would be carried out. The plan didn't outline a West to East attack. Instead they would cut Canada and enter the USA central.
They likely wouldn't stand a chance at outright victory, but they could have prolonged the war for decades using their plan.
A bit of an extreme plan, but had it gained any momentum, it could have changed the entire outcome of the war.

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Re: THOUGHTS

Post by Herb »

[quote="Tbeck"]Herb, actually the Japanese plan was very specific about how and where the invasion would be carried out. The plan didn't outline a West to East attack. Instead they would cut Canada and enter the USA central.
They likely wouldn't stand a chance at outright victory, but they could have prolonged the war for decades using their plan.
A bit of an extreme plan, but had it gained any momentum,it could have changed the entire outcome of the war.[/quote]

Not in the long run, and probably not in the short run.

This is the only plan that the japanese had for an invasion of the USA, and without 20 times the resources japan had they would have never made it out of the central valley of CA, probably would never have taken Seattle either. Too many guns in the area.

"The plan in its entirety called for the occupation of Midway Island and Hawaii, then using those points as airbases to bomb the western United States followed by an invasion of Los Angeles and San Francisco. Meanwhile, an entire Japanese Army Group would move upwards from the Aleutian Islands, occupy Anchorage, and then use this a staging base to slice down through Western Canada and seize Seattle. Both forces would then link together and steam roll out of the western United States, hitting the heartland to cut off America’s food supply, moving into the industrial regions of St. Louis, Detroit, and Chicago, then continuing on into the eastern United States with the goal being the capture of Washington as well as other major eastern cities such as New York, Norfolk, Charleston, and Miami."
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