School again

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Tbeck
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Re: School again

Post by Tbeck »

Hey RK, or should I call you pot or kettle? Did you or did you not just post about buying a take down 22?

Oops in your ATTEMPT to slam, you've exposed yourself, AGAIN. Take that stick out of your backside, you got nothing up on anyone here.

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Re: School again

Post by Tbeck »

Oh now you did it.... I suggested the same, and got what for, Lol

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Re: School again

Post by MadCow »

98VS1400 wrote:@SuzyRidr2: no, it is not a good year for guns or gun owners in America.

These school shootings tug emotional heart strings and nothing makes a legislature feel better than to “do something.” Forget the fact doing something in the middle of an emotional situation is largely considered a bad idea. We will most certainly see some kind of ill-conceived, half baked Law come out to help prevent these incidents. “Assault rifles” will almost certainly be the focus of whatever cockamamie idea spews out Washington. Then when some asshole walks into an elementary school with a .38 revolver and speed loaders and blows away 35 or 50 1st graders, the anti-gun nuts will be crying about all guns needing to be banned.

The Virginia Tech shooter used handguns. He murdered 33.
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Re: School again

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98VS1400 wrote:
MadCow wrote:
98VS1400 wrote:@SuzyRidr2: no, it is not a good year for guns or gun owners in America.

These school shootings tug emotional heart strings and nothing makes a legislature feel better than to “do something.” Forget the fact doing something in the middle of an emotional situation is largely considered a bad idea. We will most certainly see some kind of ill-conceived, half baked Law come out to help prevent these incidents. “Assault rifles” will almost certainly be the focus of whatever cockamamie idea spews out Washington. Then when some asshole walks into an elementary school with a .38 revolver and speed loaders and blows away 35 or 50 1st graders, the anti-gun nuts will be crying about all guns needing to be banned.

The Virginia Tech shooter used handguns. He murdered 33.
Facts? You think facts are important? C’mon man, this is an emotional, non-factual debate taking place in the country today. Try to be serious for once, ok?

Well alrighty then!

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Re: School again

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Re: School again

Post by Tbeck »

And THAT comment right there is why the fear monger's will win the debate.
We should really be asking why isn't that 24 year old teacher packing? It is after all every American's Right.

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Re: School again

Post by Designer »

98VS1400 wrote:
Tbeck wrote:And THAT comment right there is why the fear monger's will win the debate.
We should really be asking why isn't that 24 year old teacher packing? It is after all every American's Right.
It isn’t quite that simple, Tim. If we say every teacher has the responsibility to be armed then we’re potentially adding more victims to future scenarios. Just because a person is legally allowed to own a firearm, is willing to own a firearm, it doesn’t mean they should be armed in high stress, life or death situations. Surely you can’t deny a trained law enforcement officer is the better option in the majority of shooting cases, can you? Police are specifically trained to handle situations like that and even then, sometimes they malfunction under pressure. The better alternative could not be to arm a teacher who spent the better part of their life in academia, either as a student or a teacher, and burden him/her with the responsibility of taking out a threat all the while protecting the numerous children in the area.

No, I’d much rather leave people in their areas of assigned responsibility. I’m not necesssrily against some teachers having weapons at their disposal. I’d want there to be stringent qualifications for those wishing to carry and additional training for them through law enforcement.

Stress adds a whole new dimension to the concept of being armed at school. When to shoot, when not to shoot, who to shoot, etc. As a cop, I’m not so sure I’d relish the idea of walking into a school trying to find an active shooter only to discover some untrained, highly stressed teacher popping rounds off at me as I move through rooms or hallways. Let alone 60 teachers like that.

It’s a good idea at face value but leaves a little to be desired upon further consideration.


You make sensible points there. Just because it is their right to be "packing",...doesn't necessarily mean they should.

As you mention, Stress adds a whole new dimension to the concept of being armed at school....When to shoot, when not to shoot, who to shoot. And a teacher packing and not having the best possible training, and ongoing renewal of that training, for preparedness for the High Stress of such chaotic situations just might add to the victims.

I like your idea best,.... of letting LEO's who are specifically trained to handle situations like that .

And, to speed up the response time of that LEO (or two LEO's depending on school size), what about some sort of Emergency Quick Communication System for the teachers?......perhaps using a Map of the School on a Cellular Device? ;IDunno:
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Re: School again

Post by RoadKing »

Tbeck wrote:Hey RK, or should I call you pot or kettle? Did you or did you not just post about buying a take down 22?

Oops in your ATTEMPT to slam, you've exposed yourself, AGAIN. Take that stick out of your backside, you got nothing up on anyone here.
I was very aware of what I was saying, that I do not often discuss items on the Internet, and I hardly compare discussing a 22 for fun with all the cop and gangster side arms so often discussed here. Do you know what takedown means? Break it into two parts into a little bag for easy storage when travelling. It’s a freaking toy, dipstick, unlike the heavy artillery I see so often openly discussed here. You want to do it? There’s eyes out there, bad ass, and they pay attention.
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Re: School again

Post by Fred »

It was'nt an attack by a foreign terrorist organization F fucks sake .


It was a kid with a gun he should not have had.

When the school is surrounded by tanks and helicopters, they will shoot the supermarkets and social gatherings.
.

They are not shooting at kids, they don't know who they are. They are shooting at stress, unemployment and at you.

WHY? Because they can. its martyrdom. They want to be heard but they cant speak.

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Re: School again

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98VS1400 wrote: Im not sure what you mean when you say LE can do anything it wants and not be held accountable. I know you and I know you’re not as ignorant as that statement seems at face value. So maybe you can clarify for me.
‘Not as ignorant’, huh? Ain’t ignorant at all, my friend. Read my post again for your answer. No damned excuses at all for 36 local complaints and two warnings to the FBI for their allowing that punk to kill children when they had PLENTY of opportunity to intervene. No damned excuses but yet they still offer them and I know damned well that no LE at Fed or local level will be held accountable. You low rate me, Keith, in spite of all the respect I consistently show you and your profession. Even at my age and zero cop training you wouldn’t think me so damned ignorant if I had your back in the streets with lives on the line. I think you know that. Or, maybe not. But in this instance LE fumbled the ball, even they fuck up time to time and would do well to admit it.
As for your temporary hold, perhaps that has more to do with the f’d up state you live in more than it has to do with you. I’m pretty sure they’d delay George Washington from obtaining a firearm if he were alive today.
Again, read my post... you are agreeing with me. I blame Albany. Did you read that? Huh?
“Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player, that struts and frets his hour upon the stage, and then is heard no more.
It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury…
Signifying nothing”

Signifying monkey, stay up in your tree. Always lying and signifying, but you better not monkey with me.

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Re: School again

Post by SuzyRidr2 »

Tbeck wrote:And THAT comment right there is why the fear monger's will win the debate.
We should really be asking why isn't that 24 year old teacher packing? It is after all every American's Right.
I agree, but rights aside, Police officers were trained and school teachers can be trained as well and equally well trained. That doesn't mean every school teacher should or would want to be trained, but the ones that do could make a world of difference during the 12 to 18 minutes it takes law enforcement to respond to a school shooting and be on scene.
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Re: School again

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Yeah I’m wrong. The whole issue of LE responsibility has ALREADY faded. The perp is being glorified as a poor lonesome kid depressed about the passing of his mother and who just needs a freaking girl friend. So who’s to blame? Me and the NRA. Guns are to blame. The President and all Republicans are to blame. You wanna talk police state? See something say something? Why? It’ll just be ignored. As far as your example goes, crooked leaders at the top of the FBI already abusing the rights of American citizens in an endless witch hunt so I’m not exempt from someone even now ruining my life by dropping a dime with baseless accusations. An unaccountable FBI is already a frightening police state in the making.

Keith, LE are heroes, ive long said so. The people of our country own three hundred million guns legally and have no desire to go to war with police. However, The Thin Blue Line can only do so much, it is properly said they are all that keeps anarchy at bay by controlling the bad guys. But LE is getting gunned down daily and we the people hate seeing that. Illegals have more rights than legals. Ruthless criminals are given sanctuary. Killers become victims of an unjust society and glorified by commie bastards. How much more of this crap do you think we the people can take? It is the bad guys we will go to war with if there is a worsening breakdown in law and order. If someone threatens me and I report it and nothing is done? Guess what? Yeah, you finish my thought. I’ve nothing more to say.
“Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player, that struts and frets his hour upon the stage, and then is heard no more.
It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury…
Signifying nothing”

Signifying monkey, stay up in your tree. Always lying and signifying, but you better not monkey with me.

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Re: School again

Post by Tbeck »

RK, I believe what Keith is attempting to say is that when crap like this, like 9/11, etc... people lash out as they try making sense of how this could happen. We need someone or something to place blame on. This is an emotional response and very normal.
However given the opportunity to consider the reality, and to understand the limitations of what could or could not have been done differently by the different actor's in these tragedies, we might arrive at a different conclusion.
In this instance a LOT of small event's led up to a tragic outcome. No ONE agency or actor, except the shooter is ultimately responsible.
We could blame LE for a lack of investigation and follow-up. We could blame the school for scheduling the fire drill that gave the shooter access. We could blame the husband/wife that took him in and didn't secure his weapon's when they had taken him to see mental health professionals.
However none of us would be accepting of the infringement upon our rights that would be necessary for LE to have done much more than they had.
It's simple, this young man decided to murder, and he planned out every detail, and sought out the means and opportunity. Nobody to blame but him.
It's time folk's get their heads wrapped around that reality.

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Re: School again

Post by Travlin »

Tbeck wrote:It's time folk's get their heads wrapped around that reality.
If the last few years are any indication I am doubtful that can happen. To say we seem to be losing deep thinkers doesn't quite cover it.

Something I saw today that pretty well hit it.

Last month they were eating Tide Pods. This month they think they have answers for this.

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Re: School again

Post by Tbeck »

Travlin they are too pampered. Further it is our fault. I don't mean you and I specifically, I am talking our culture and society. Nothing is anyone's fault, nobody is responsible, and there is no accountability. The kid's didn't do this, us parents and grandparents did this.

I don't know how or if we can even reverse this....

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Re: School again

Post by Travlin »

Been following this as it is local.

This sheriff is doing what he can and not the first time.
WEST CHESTER TOWNSHIP, Ohio -- Butler County Sheriff Richard Jones offered free concealed weapon training to teachers in his jurisdiction, a few days after a gunman killed 17 people at a Florida high school.

Jones' offer included space for 50 teachers. Demand was four times that high.

Premier Shooting and Training Center is offering to help, by providing free concealed carry classes to teachers. Premier also will have discounted classes on how to handle medical crises.

READ MORE: Betsy DeVos says states have 'option' to arm teachers
RELATED: US has a unique problem with mass shootings

ADVERTISING

Colin Bullard served in the U.S. military and has been teaching for about 12 years. He already has concealed carry and critical incident training. Many fellow teachers, he said, are ready to join in, though he recognizes it's not for everyone.

"Other teachers come from different backgrounds and aren't so comfortable with it," he said.

In Ohio, districts must authorize teachers and staffers to carry concealed weapons in the building. Edgewood City Schools adopted a concealed carry policy in 2013, according to the Dayton Daily News. It's not clear if other county districts have similar policies.


At Cincinnati Public Schools, the region's largest district, the Board of Education and administrators haven't talked about providing any kind of training to teachers on the use of guns. Spokeswoman Lauren B. Worley said all teachers and staff go through regular training on school safety protocols, including active shooter drills.

Confronting a shooter is just one part of the equation: There's also the issue of immediate medical care.

Jim Hardman, a tactical instructor at Premier, is offering a discount on discounted critical care classes to teachers. If someone has an arterial wound, he said, they could have just 90 seconds until they bleed out and die. He'd like teachers to arm themselves with tourniquets and other supplies, furthering their classroom training in a way that might someday matter most.

"You can hope all you want that there's going to be a paramedic in your classroom with you, but there's not," Hardman said. "That teacher is that true first responder."

Teachers can contact Premier at 513-342-5840 to learn more about the classes.

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Re: School again

Post by Tbeck »

Keith, tough subject for many to get their heads around. As you know public perception of what LE authority exists, is often mistaken.
The aforementioned is what I like about these forum's. Many times a subject like this will come up. If folks are open to discussion and thinking about thing's, it can be quite informative.
We all have thing's in common, and one is we can't know everything. The good news is we do have people in the know who can get us better grounded if we'll listen.

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Re: School again

Post by Designer »

98VS1400 wrote:
Designer wrote:And, to speed up the response time of that LEO (or two LEO's depending on school size), what about some sort of Emergency Quick Communication System for th teachers?......perhaps using a Map of the School on a Cellular Device?
Schools are too big these days to only have 2 officers. Some are as big as small communities! I think there needs to be a full compliment working all day long. A sergeant and 4-5 officers/deputies/troopers, maybe more if the school is extra large. It’s too much to ask of one or two officers to cover a campus with numerous buildings. I mean, aren’t the lives our children worth the crumbs it would cost to fund a few extra school officers? (The left loves to make arguments like that)

I know for a fact we have very good campus communication in the schools in my county. My sheriff’s office is very involved with the schools and the security there. But still, we have only 1 deputy per school with elementary schools by in large unmanned at all. The teachers have portable radios and there is a emergency plan already in place. It’s actually quite impressive.

I just think it could be better.

As I read what you post, I learn more of The Specifics, as does all who are not LEO's here in this Thread.

Your mention of relative to the sizes of each Schools' Campus Area/Number-of buildings involved and your estimate of the Minimum Number of Officers needed to be effective was a new bit of information to me.

And in listening to your experiences, it seems it might boil down to a question of just how much 'security' at the Schools we will be willing to pay for as citizens. At the extreme, having an LEO in each and every classroom will prevent the most possible deaths from attacks. Perhaps not a exactly a viable installation at this time. "A sergeant and 4-5 officers/deputies/troopers, maybe more if the school is extra large"...is something to consider. Beyond that is an area just as wise to explore.

However, does the successful "fix" end there?

Not to throw rocks at any LEO's "out on Duty" patrolling or anything,( I am in FULL support of Them). In this instance, the profound amount of evidentiary actions/words that perpetrator displayed prior to the attack as "warning signs" ,...and the lack of effective actions dealing with his made-obvious "situation",... must needs be considered in any viable "Fix", would you not agree?

The Wizened Adage,..."An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure"....comes to mind
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Re: School again

Post by Cuban »

98VS1400 wrote: Well said Tim...
[emoji2] I've stayed out of this discussion because reasons, but I just wanted to pop in and say that you two (specifically) are making it hard for me to do so. That is all. :rag:

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Re: School again

Post by navigator »

Travlin wrote:
Tbeck wrote:It's time folk's get their heads wrapped around that reality.
If the last few years are any indication I am doubtful that can happen. To say we seem to be losing deep thinkers doesn't quite cover it.

Something I saw today that pretty well hit it.

Last month they were eating Tide Pods. This month they think they have answers for this.
Yup eating Tide Pods now, and they will be voting in 2 years. :bonk:

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