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OODA Loops

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:01 pm
by RoadKing
This is a fascinating field of study for me, learning and practice become a way of life. I was using this most of my life even before becoming conscious of it as a concept with a name. And now that I’m aware of this it becomes important not to become TOO self conscious of that which is natural to me and maybe you. I’d give some research links but am still using mobile device. Google it if you don’t already know, and a word of warning... it will hook you. Especially good are the links as pertains to military and LE. Perhaps this has already been a topic here or IA. I don’t recall it.

In the miltary I learned the importance of conditioned contingencies based upon repeated past experiences. Very much relevant I’m thinking, even if those experiences are played over and over and visioned only in your mind, programming yourself so that you are prepared in a multitude of scenarios to operate inside an adversary’s own OODA Loop. Fascinating.

Contingency concepts after the military made it possible for most of my success in the building trades making it possible for me to problem solve while on the run. And all that time I was practicing something on the job and in the streets and I didn’t even know it had a name... OODA Loop.

Re: OODA Loops

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:07 pm
by MadCow
Back when I was in the military I taught a 12 week course on scientific intelligence (engineering and calibration)...one of the chapters dealt with ambiguity resolution...in that most often we work with incomplete or bogus information when making tactical decisions...we learn to embrace this because the solution is always in plain sight. Of course, the OODA loop is much more than simply a 4 step decision making process...but it IS the foundation from which we build upon not just in tactical decisions but in pretty much everything we do.

Re: OODA Loops

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:58 pm
by jeffcoslacker
I had to read some stuff and think about this for a while before I could put something tangible to it...but I think I have an example from my own experiences.

Everybody knows I really enjoy driving, and I like a little competition.

One of the things I love about being the age I am is that I can engage in a little friendly driving competition with a younger driver and more often than not, make him or her totally fuck themselves at will. Which is how I have to do it, since I no longer can rely on raw horsepower or perfect reflexes.

What I'm doing is this: I'm not only driving MY car, I'm driving theirs as well. I'm in their head, seeing the road and the traffic and the situation and the pressure I'm putting on them from behind, while sizing up how skilled or un-skilled their reactions and decisions are...and using it to my advantage to know when and in what way they are going to screw up, so I can capitalize on it and set them up, before they even realize what happened. Once you get a feel for how far out in traffic their awareness goes, setting them up to fail and get caught in slower traffic is almost laughably easy.

Same way I guess a combat pilot sizes up his opponent's flying skills, sees where he's weak or inexperienced, and then forces an exploit of it to his advantage.

Re: OODA Loops

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:26 pm
by RoadKing
Thanks for responses. I have some links I wish I could share but am using my phone. For me this applies to sudden unexpected urgent action. Now, what I am going to say is based on my past and what others have told me. Evidently OODA is natural to folks such as myself without ever having been aware of the concept. Latent Apex predator is one way of seeing it. A leader when called upon to reluctantly be one for a brief time, a reluctant Alpha male. A take charge warrior only in extreme urgencies. A latent berserker. It’s true, my friends. And ya know the truth? I’m an abject coward with a psychotic fear of pain, and that is putting it mildly. OODA is something I became aware of long after my street fighting days had ended but when it was pointed out to me how it applies personally I became fascinated.

In the military I learned killing. I took it to heart. I learned to read people (Observe). I learned to see them as friend or foe (Orient). Decision and Action became conditioned and automatic. But as far as combat goes little did I know how this would affect me in the streets of San Jose a few years later. Truth told I became a scared young man surviving in an ultimate outlaw world in a very violent time. So I lived a life that moved at insane pace through OODA loops. I was getting inside the adversary OODA loop with the credo Hit First Hit Hard Hit Fast. Fucked up a lot of people and they never had the opportunity to touch me. I’m talking a world of bad scary people who I really had no business being around other than we were all motorcycle people.

I reached a point in life where I had to control the berserker impulse. The emotional and physical action today would likely pop my heart. Now I condition myself to get instantly within an adversary’s OODA Loop if necessary with a gun.

Had I remained in the military I would have become the real life Colonel Kurtz. I was not allowed in boxing matches because I’d resort to street fighting. I had none of the self control required of the martial arts. PD’s would shun me for sure. But just the same it is LE use of OODA Loops that intrigues me the most. Cops are bad asses with self control, something I could never be.

Re: OODA Loops

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:34 am
by HARRIS
IS THAT LIKE HOW COUNTER STEERING WORKS ....

Re: OODA Loops

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:28 am
by RoadKing
HARRIS wrote:IS THAT LIKE HOW COUNTER STEERING WORKS ....

Interesting question. Lan tried explaining counter steering to me several years ago and said it was something he learned from a book. Made no sense to me what he was trying to intellectualize, but it may be I have been counter steering since 1957 and had no idea it had a name. Same for me with OODA.

Re: OODA Loops

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:36 am
by MadCow
RoadKing wrote:
HARRIS wrote:IS THAT LIKE HOW COUNTER STEERING WORKS ....

Interesting question. Lan tried explaining counter steering to me several years ago and said it was something he learned from a book. Made no sense to me what he was trying to intellectualize, but it may be I have been counter steering since 1957 and had no idea it had a name. Same for me with OODA.



You've been counter steering as long as you have been riding a motorcycle over about 15mph.

Re: OODA Loops

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:49 am
by RoadKing
MadCow wrote:
RoadKing wrote:
HARRIS wrote:IS THAT LIKE HOW COUNTER STEERING WORKS ....

Interesting question. Lan tried explaining counter steering to me several years ago and said it was something he learned from a book. Made no sense to me what he was trying to intellectualize, but it may be I have been counter steering since 1957 and had no idea it had a name. Same for me with OODA.



You've been counter steering as long as you have been riding a motorcycle over about 15mph.

Yes, indeed. Seems like proper bike steering would come natural to keep from riding off the road!

Re: OODA Loops

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:34 am
by navigator
OODA certainly is natural to me, but you forgot several steps....stop, look, listen, kind of like crossing the tracks. [emoji106]

Re: OODA Loops

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:12 am
by wally w
You can make plans but you can't plan the outcome.

Re: OODA Loops

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:17 am
by Suzuki Johnny
We all use OODA almost every day in our humble lives.....

The first I heard of the concept of OODA was in the military while stationed at Fort Hood Texas....in a class that was taught by a 275 pound South Korean Top named Key.....He was as agile as a cat on the prowl which was evidenced by his presence every morning for PT at 5 am..
A likable and acknowledged career soldier ....

The class was on tank strategy in the open field ...although we were considered support in a M88 ATR or VTR we were armed with a 50 cal mounted on top and the 4 man crew were each issued a .45 cal side arm...so we were required to take the course.....
During the class he wisely used a scenario of waiting in the chow line as an example of using OODA correctly and efficiently........he added humor to the equation and made taking the class an enjoyment rather than a chore...

Re: OODA Loops

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:09 am
by RoadKing
The use of OODA means being able to get inside an adversary OODA before he gets inside of yours. Don’t understand what it has to do with packing a sidearm to the chow line? :lolfall: Splain?

And if you are trying to close loops with a rr track you have mental issues. :lolfall: Loops have nothing to do with everyday common linear decisions. A linear decision to do harm can be dangerous to one’s own health. Most people make such decisions in a linear fashion.

Re: OODA Loops

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:26 pm
by Tbeck
We use OODA all the time, you have your entire life. The best simple example I have ever heard is, you are coming home from anywhere as a teenager and you look in the driveway for car's (mom or dad) and adjust how you react based upon the observations. If anyone is home and observes you approaching the house they are also making observations and anticipating certain action's. However the key to OODA is to anticipate the other's action's and disrupt them, aka get within their loop with distraction or unexpected action.
It's a cool concept that boils down to being one step ahead.

Re: OODA Loops

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:42 pm
by RoadKing
Tbeck wrote:We use OODA all the time, you have your entire life. The best simple example I have ever heard is, you are coming home from anywhere as a teenager and you look in the driveway for car's (mom or dad) and adjust how you react based upon the observations. If anyone is home and observes you approaching the house they are also making observations and anticipating certain action's. However the key to OODA is to anticipate the other's action's and disrupt them, aka get within their loop with distraction or unexpected action.
It's a cool concept that boils down to being one step ahead.

Yes. As a study as well as practice OODA Loop fascinates me. I’m most intrigued with its use during moments of urgency, immediacy. Cops are incredible street fighters and I enjoy watching the online video tutorials providing OODA Loop courses for them.

Re: OODA Loops

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:45 pm
by Prodigal_Sun
Tbeck wrote:We use OODA all the time, you have your entire life. The best simple example I have ever heard is, you are coming home from anywhere as a teenager and you look in the driveway for car's (mom or dad) and adjust how you react based upon the observations. If anyone is home and observes you approaching the house they are also making observations and anticipating certain action's. However the key to OODA is to anticipate the other's action's and disrupt them, aka get within their loop with distraction or unexpected action.
It's a cool concept that boils down to being one step ahead.


That's exactly it. Both sides of a confrontation have their own loop that goes at a certain speed. Whoever has a faster loop, not only gains an advantage, it's one that grows with every cycle. Say it takes person A. a half second to go through their loop, and person B. takes a full second. After 10 seconds person A. Has made 20 choices. The key is they don't have to be correct choices, as long as you're the faster party you have the luxury of adjusting your reaction as the situation changes.

Re: OODA Loops

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:31 pm
by RoadKing
I disagree, to a degree. :lolfall: Serious, many decisions are not made using OODA Loop. A fool may look at me, observe, and mindlessly decide to act by attacking me. By not using proper orientation he has reduced his decision to linear and foolish. I properly react as tho he was acting within a OODA Loop even if that is not the case and he doesn’t have a chance. The key is respecting an adversary as tho he is using OODA even if it may not be the case. My fear of getting hurt has always forced me to see a potential adversary as having a perimeter that I must breach before he breached mine. I look back and realize that most of my adversaries never saw me as having a perimeter nor did they have awareness even subconsciously of their own. They can be faster and stronger to no avail. For me fear has been a great motivator, a great teacher.

One of the cop videos I watched, the instructer completely destroys the adversary OODA Loop by simply extending his arm with palm open in the adversary’s face and creating a new OODA, no superior speed needed. And I’m not talking about making choices that may be wrong but can work if they are fast. I’m talking about DECISIONS that penetrate the adversary perimeter no matter how fast he may be. If your actions are fast, so much the better.

The worst problem with OODA Loop is that you may make a decision followed by action that wrongly hurts someone. Such are the hazards of survival. But that can be avoided... don’t invade another’s space and always have an aura/perimeter/OODA of your own that is easy to read. Works for me.

Re: OODA Loops

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:45 am
by Suzuki Johnny
RoadKing wrote:The use of OODA means being able to get inside an adversary OODA before he gets inside of yours. Don’t understand what it has to do with packing a sidearm to the chow line? :lolfall: Splain?

And if you are trying to close loops with a rr track you have mental issues. :lolfall: Loops have nothing to do with everyday common linear decisions. A linear decision to do harm can be dangerous to one’s own health. Most people make such decisions in a linear fashion.





You mean using the OODA LOOP...right...........not the plain ole OODA we use every day in our lives...

There is a distinction between the two terms and how they are used....I was using the plain ole OODA term....


never did pack a sidearm in the chow line..but wouldn't have been a bad idea.... [emoji2]

and our VTR's track did make a loop......but I'm being a farceur in saying so [emoji106]

Re: OODA Loops

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:09 am
by RoadKing
The OODA is a loop! :lolfall: Slow day? I think the next thread I start is going to be a Fruit Loop/Hula Hoop conflation. :lolfall:

Re: OODA Loops

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:12 am
by navigator
Every color Froot Loop tastes the same.

Re: OODA Loops

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:27 am
by RoadKing
navigator wrote:Every color Froot Loop tastes the same.

THERE YOU GO! Profound depth of thought exists here! :bow: