Revzilla's take on HD and Polaris low numbers

Keep it civil
User avatar
DevilsFan
Joined a 1200cc Club
Posts: 7259
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2014 5:56 pm
My Bike: 2018 Honda CB650F
Location: Zephyrhills, FL

Revzilla's take on HD and Polaris low numbers

Post by DevilsFan »

https://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/t ... me=VigLink

Another interesting read that creates more questions than answers. One of the things that got me thinking was this: "Year-to-date sales of used Harley-Davidson motorcycles were up through November and continued to perform significantly better than new retail sales in the United States."

I think they should focus a little more on used bike sales, at least to get them some more revenue. May not be a lot but some is better than none. Think about it, if they produce less (which they're going to have to do to cut costs) they can take their used bikes, give a lot of leeway for price negotiation, and walk away with some profit.
I know, I know...on any trade-in's they won't be able to offer you much. But does any dealer ever???
If something, giving riders a chance to own a Harley that they can afford, I think will definitely help increase revenue. In addition, putting a new rider onto an affordable HD could inject that "rider's bug", thus having a long-time customer.

In the end, IMO, Harley HAS TO lower their prices! Even though the market is picking up I think people are still skittish about big-ticket merchandise. I'd rather sell a ton of units at a tighter profit margin than to sell fewer units with a wider profit margin.
There will be a time where you will no longer be able to use, "But...I didn't know!", as an excuse. And if you're exiled from society, well, you were warned.

RoadKing
Joined a 1100cc Club
Posts: 6577
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:27 pm
My Bike: Road King

Re: Revzilla's take on HD and Polaris low numbers

Post by RoadKing »

DevilsFan wrote:https://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/t ... me=VigLink

Another interesting read that creates more questions than answers. One of the things that got me thinking was this: "Year-to-date sales of used Harley-Davidson motorcycles were up through November and continued to perform significantly better than new retail sales in the United States."

I think they should focus a little more on used bike sales, at least to get them some more revenue. May not be a lot but some is better than none. Think about it, if they produce less (which they're going to have to do to cut costs) they can take their used bikes, give a lot of leeway for price negotiation, and walk away with some profit.
I know, I know...on any trade-in's they won't be able to offer you much. But does any dealer ever???
If something, giving riders a chance to own a Harley that they can afford, I think will definitely help increase revenue. In addition, putting a new rider onto an affordable HD could inject that "rider's bug", thus having a long-time customer.

In the end, IMO, Harley HAS TO lower their prices! Even though the market is picking up I think people are still skittish about big-ticket merchandise. I'd rather sell a ton of units at a tighter profit margin than to sell fewer units with a wider profit margin.
Yeah, DF, you are right... fast nichols are better than slow dimes. But one thing you need to keep in consideration is that Harley continues to demand high end becauese the value is there. My closest HD dealer is in Utica, NY. Google them. Hundreds of previous owned bikes for sale with comparatively little depreciation considering 30K plus miles. They are treated like baby girls by their owners and never ridden until the Spring rains wash away the ice. We are talking Upstate where the Harley population is surprisingly big and where five months a year snow rules.

New bike sales here are down but they are still selling. Quality sells itself.

And, yeah, some say Harley should do this and Harley should do that. Listen to old RK... I predict Harley will retro to the ElectraGlide business model. The Hog. Rather than try to guess what custom factory ensembles will sell on the dealer floor, release basic swing arm and soft tail models and allow customers to custom build their own bikes themselves for delivery or at the dealer or at home with HD ready custom parts.
“Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player, that struts and frets his hour upon the stage, and then is heard no more.
It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury…
Signifying nothing”

Signifying monkey, stay up in your tree. Always lying and signifying, but you better not monkey with me.

jonnycando
Joined a 850cc Club
Posts: 1485
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2014 4:45 pm
My Bike: 1996 Suzuki Intruder
Location: Roanoke, VA

Re: Revzilla's take on HD and Polaris low numbers

Post by jonnycando »

Undoubtedly, folks who DO want a big bike want a deal...big spenders are largely extinct...not that they don't want spendy things they just want them cheap. Harley is looking at a market that just doesn't want big bikes at ANY price however. By all accounts the Street series is selling well, but the buyers aren't riding them from what I can tell. Sportsters are perennial seller of course, and they too don't get ridden much. I think most bike owners don't ride much and that's why used bikes can often be had in like new shape. All the better for we who actually ride...somebody else takes the depreciation and we get nearly new bikes. I grant you for my own self, that bikes of the kind I like they are not cheap by any stretch, and if the new sales numbers are too poor....there might not be any used ones for me to buy. But heck....how many years of riding do I got left????

Tbeck
Joined a 1200cc Club
Posts: 7607
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2016 10:58 am
My Bike: Concours 1400

Re: Revzilla's take on HD and Polaris low numbers

Post by Tbeck »

A sale is a sale, but it doesn't do a thing for employment of worker's or the company stock. Harley already made the money from the initial sale. Selling second hand bike's may keep the dealer door's open but not the factory.

RK, for you or I the quality might be worth an extra buck or two, BUT I have been saying for over a decade that Harley and Polaris have been pricing themselves right out of the game. For example Honda and BMW have been selling their top of the line full dresser's at $26k for the past 6 years, and with all the bells/whistles. The pricing has remained unchanged. In that same period HD has raised their tour by some $8k, and Polaris brought in their Indians at a similar price mark.
Quality of all 4 couldn't be split between a hair, so that's a non-factor. What is a factor is who is willing or ABLE to drop $30k on a recreational product. You and I ride FAR more, and in conditions that 90% don't.
It really comes back to the fad of riding running it's course. Some like ourselves that ride as part of our daily life only make up about 10% of the owner's and consumer's. Think back to the 70's and Harley's troubles.

RoadKing
Joined a 1100cc Club
Posts: 6577
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:27 pm
My Bike: Road King

Re: Revzilla's take on HD and Polaris low numbers

Post by RoadKing »

jonnycando wrote:Undoubtedly, folks who DO want a big bike want a deal...big spenders are largely extinct...not that they don't want spendy things they just want them cheap. Harley is looking at a market that just doesn't want big bikes at ANY price however. By all accounts the Street series is selling well, but the buyers aren't riding them from what I can tell. Sportsters are perennial seller of course, and they too don't get ridden much. I think most bike owners don't ride much and that's why used bikes can often be had in like new shape. All the better for we who actually ride...somebody else takes the depreciation and we get nearly new bikes. I grant you for my own self, that bikes of the kind I like they are not cheap by any stretch, and if the new sales numbers are too poor....there might not be any used ones for me to buy. But heck....how many years of riding do I got left????
What you type above is highly innacurate, sir. Motorcycles are all discretionary expenses at any cost. Discretionary in that they are not a needed expense,.. dirt, sport, touring or otherwise. I don’t know where you get your info, but Harley gets ridden. A lot. ‘From what I can tell’? Bullshit, man, or your ignorant predudice is showing, or you have faulty sources, or all of the above. Everywhere I go there are tons of Harleys on the road sometimes 12 months a year in good climes. In N California I never missed one month riding. People I know are hard working blue collar with family and hardly what you would call big spenders but there is a Harley in the family. It’s a matter of priorities. Unlike ‘big spenders’ who eat out often, folks I know eat home cooking. They don’t spend money on things like Country Clubs that big spenders think are important. You can work hard and take care of family and have a Harley if your priorities dictate as such. But if you are waiting for the value of Harley to come down so you can get it the easy way then you will die holding your breath.
“Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player, that struts and frets his hour upon the stage, and then is heard no more.
It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury…
Signifying nothing”

Signifying monkey, stay up in your tree. Always lying and signifying, but you better not monkey with me.

User avatar
DevilsFan
Joined a 1200cc Club
Posts: 7259
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2014 5:56 pm
My Bike: 2018 Honda CB650F
Location: Zephyrhills, FL

Re: Revzilla's take on HD and Polaris low numbers

Post by DevilsFan »

So let me pose the hypothetical...(because I didn't want this post to be about HD bashing):

You are given the position of CEO for Harley Davidson Motorcycle Company. You're faced with the above situation. Where does your business plan go?

***Remember, you're not just catering to the new owners/riders but you HAVE TO appease your investors/stock owners. And since the stocks are dipping considerably, you need to come up with something that will cover all areas.

What...is...your...business...plan...??? :Umm:
There will be a time where you will no longer be able to use, "But...I didn't know!", as an excuse. And if you're exiled from society, well, you were warned.

navigator
Joined a 1100cc Club
Posts: 5428
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:33 pm
My Bike: VS800

Re: Revzilla's take on HD and Polaris low numbers

Post by navigator »

DevilsFan wrote:So let me pose the hypothetical...(because I didn't want this post to be about HD bashing):

You are given the position of CEO for Harley Davidson Motorcycle Company. You're faced with the above situation. Where does your business plan go?

***Remember, you're not just catering to the new owners/riders but you HAVE TO appease your investors/stock owners. And since the stocks are dipping considerably, you need to come up with something that will cover all areas.

What...is...your...business...plan...??? :Umm:
Go electric in 2019. :ahha:

RoadKing
Joined a 1100cc Club
Posts: 6577
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:27 pm
My Bike: Road King

Re: Revzilla's take on HD and Polaris low numbers

Post by RoadKing »

DevilsFan wrote:So let me pose the hypothetical...(because I didn't want this post to be about HD bashing):

You are given the position of CEO for Harley Davidson Motorcycle Company. You're faced with the above situation. Where does your business plan go?

***Remember, you're not just catering to the new owners/riders but you HAVE TO appease your investors/stock owners. And since the stocks are dipping considerably, you need to come up with something that will cover all areas.

What...is...your...business...plan...??? :Umm:
You didn’t address me so I’ll answer as tho you did. Bottom line for any business is to make money and you do what you have to even if you have to restructure. You have to first make enough money to make payroll and in down times you have to lay off some people. Standard business. Second, you have to know and respond to your customers. I know Harley customers very well, I ride with them. I told you in previous post how I would restructure manufacturing. It has to do with the customers and is very much a part of the business. Read it again. The structure of sales and service is already firmly entrenched. As far as investors? The only investors a CEO truly has a responsibility to is owners of corporate bonds. No enterprise is responsible for outside stock investments other than going back to number one which is making profit. Always take care of number one first because if you don’t take care of money your value as HOG on the stock market will go to zero. This is all just basic Econ 101 for any enterprise so I just suggest you go back to my post on inventory and read again and you will see there is no need for your confusion. I spelled it out succinctly for you there.
“Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player, that struts and frets his hour upon the stage, and then is heard no more.
It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury…
Signifying nothing”

Signifying monkey, stay up in your tree. Always lying and signifying, but you better not monkey with me.

User avatar
DevilsFan
Joined a 1200cc Club
Posts: 7259
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2014 5:56 pm
My Bike: 2018 Honda CB650F
Location: Zephyrhills, FL

Re: Revzilla's take on HD and Polaris low numbers

Post by DevilsFan »

navigator wrote:
DevilsFan wrote:So let me pose the hypothetical...(because I didn't want this post to be about HD bashing):

You are given the position of CEO for Harley Davidson Motorcycle Company. You're faced with the above situation. Where does your business plan go?

***Remember, you're not just catering to the new owners/riders but you HAVE TO appease your investors/stock owners. And since the stocks are dipping considerably, you need to come up with something that will cover all areas.

What...is...your...business...plan...??? :Umm:
Go electric in 2019. :ahha:

Bankrupt!
There will be a time where you will no longer be able to use, "But...I didn't know!", as an excuse. And if you're exiled from society, well, you were warned.

RoadKing
Joined a 1100cc Club
Posts: 6577
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:27 pm
My Bike: Road King

Re: Revzilla's take on HD and Polaris low numbers

Post by RoadKing »

DevilsFan wrote:
navigator wrote:
DevilsFan wrote:So let me pose the hypothetical...(because I didn't want this post to be about HD bashing):

You are given the position of CEO for Harley Davidson Motorcycle Company. You're faced with the above situation. Where does your business plan go?

***Remember, you're not just catering to the new owners/riders but you HAVE TO appease your investors/stock owners. And since the stocks are dipping considerably, you need to come up with something that will cover all areas.

What...is...your...business...plan...??? :Umm:
Go electric in 2019. :ahha:

Bankrupt!
Your wildest dreams. I spent the time to respond to your request for what I’d do. Low rate Harley, low rate my attempt to respond, guess you’re not all that interested, so carry on with your ignorance. Typical, DF. It really is. Folks with insecurities like to elevate themselves by low rating others. I have observed for over 50 years the insecurities of rice riders and it is very evident to me that we don’t have a problem of Harley rider superiority but rather metric rider inferiority. And there is not now nor has there ever been a need for it. Two things you may be sure of, regardless of brand we are all riders and second Harley will continue to thrive.
“Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player, that struts and frets his hour upon the stage, and then is heard no more.
It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury…
Signifying nothing”

Signifying monkey, stay up in your tree. Always lying and signifying, but you better not monkey with me.

User avatar
DevilsFan
Joined a 1200cc Club
Posts: 7259
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2014 5:56 pm
My Bike: 2018 Honda CB650F
Location: Zephyrhills, FL

Re: Revzilla's take on HD and Polaris low numbers

Post by DevilsFan »

I did respond...TWICE!!! I don't know why it hasn't posted either of my responses.

And RK, I ain't trying to dog you. But you are SOOOO Harley biased!!!!

Really??? Harley's gonna continue to thrive?!?!?! And you're telling me I'm not the one reading?!?!?!

How many times has Honda been bankrupt??? Suzuki??? Come on, man!

Seriously, if you think the Glide is Harley's out, you are in trouble! The new Wing's will demolish them.
There will be a time where you will no longer be able to use, "But...I didn't know!", as an excuse. And if you're exiled from society, well, you were warned.

User avatar
MadCow
Site Admin
Posts: 6281
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:36 pm
My Bike: 2023 Pan America Special

Re: Revzilla's take on HD and Polaris low numbers

Post by MadCow »

DevilsFan wrote:(because I didn't want this post to be about HD bashing):

Uhm, no ....you're insecure, which is exactly why you posted this.
-DBTO

User avatar
DevilsFan
Joined a 1200cc Club
Posts: 7259
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2014 5:56 pm
My Bike: 2018 Honda CB650F
Location: Zephyrhills, FL

Re: Revzilla's take on HD and Polaris low numbers

Post by DevilsFan »

MadCow wrote:
DevilsFan wrote:(because I didn't want this post to be about HD bashing):

Uhm, no ....you're insecure, which is exactly why you posted this.

Call me insecure then! My whole life is turmoil over a freakin' motorcycle brand!!! Yep, you pegged me! What should I do?!?!?! What...should....I...do?!?!?

I hope they have "Harley hater's" therapy for this insecurity I have. :bonk:
There will be a time where you will no longer be able to use, "But...I didn't know!", as an excuse. And if you're exiled from society, well, you were warned.

RoadKing
Joined a 1100cc Club
Posts: 6577
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:27 pm
My Bike: Road King

Re: Revzilla's take on HD and Polaris low numbers

Post by RoadKing »

DF, ive ridden with several N East IAers and I don’t care a wit what they ride, it’s two wheels. Yeah, I’m hard core Harley and I really don’t see why that would be a problem for you or anyone else! It’s a motorcycle! And when I read ignorance I have to respond. Or maybe it’s all trolling and I just don’t know it cuz I take it seriously some of this stuff cuz I just don’t get this dumbass forum game of baiting and I don’t do it to others. I no doubt love my dog more than your dog but that don’t mean I think my dog is superior! Come on, man.
“Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player, that struts and frets his hour upon the stage, and then is heard no more.
It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury…
Signifying nothing”

Signifying monkey, stay up in your tree. Always lying and signifying, but you better not monkey with me.

User avatar
DevilsFan
Joined a 1200cc Club
Posts: 7259
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2014 5:56 pm
My Bike: 2018 Honda CB650F
Location: Zephyrhills, FL

Re: Revzilla's take on HD and Polaris low numbers

Post by DevilsFan »

RoadKing wrote:DF, ive ridden with several N East IAers and I don’t care a wit what they ride, it’s two wheels. Yeah, I’m hard core Harley and I really don’t see why that would be a problem for you or anyone else! It’s a motorcycle! And when I read ignorance I have to respond. Or maybe it’s all trolling and I just don’t know it cuz I take it seriously some of this stuff cuz I just don’t get this dumbass forum game of baiting and I don’t do it to others. I no doubt love my dog more than your dog but that don’t mean I think my dog is superior! Come on, man.

Bullshit. I'd have posted an article on Honda or Suzuki just the same.

I don't wish Harley ill-will but I get so tired of all you die-hard HD owners IMMEDIATELY jumping to the defensive over a mere mention of "Harley Davidson".

Truth is, I could give a shit what bike you ride, how great of a rider you are, how many bikes you've owned, etc...Bottom line is Harley's losing money! Unless it's a government bailout any investor would be an idiot to invest in a company that has shown consistent loss for many straight quarters.

And I added a post in attempts to get a considerate and logical hypothetical. You complain that everyone always trolls Harley, well I'm complaining that you can't DISCUSS any possible solution to HD's financial woes without ya'll taking it so freakin' personal EVERY TIME!!!

Note: I did attempt to post what I thought would be a good business avenue to take for them, twice! For whatever reason, when I hit the "Submit" button, everything just disappeared on my screen. I won't type it all out again but I focused on R&D and how they need to design something with plastic, lowering their prices and tightening up their profit margins, and expanding into other areas like scooters and off-road bikes. And if they think the answer is in the LiveWire, then I would definitely NOT ever invest in that company.
There will be a time where you will no longer be able to use, "But...I didn't know!", as an excuse. And if you're exiled from society, well, you were warned.

User avatar
MadCow
Site Admin
Posts: 6281
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:36 pm
My Bike: 2023 Pan America Special

Re: Revzilla's take on HD and Polaris low numbers

Post by MadCow »

DevilsFan wrote:
MadCow wrote:
DevilsFan wrote:(because I didn't want this post to be about HD bashing):

Uhm, no ....you're insecure, which is exactly why you posted this.

Call me insecure then! My whole life is turmoil over a freakin' motorcycle brand!!! Yep, you pegged me! What should I do?!?!?! What...should....I...do?!?!?

I hope they have "Harley hater's" therapy for this insecurity I have. :bonk:

Coz why else would anyone post an article about "Harley and Polaris" and then pointedly zero in on HD and couldn't even be bothered with even mentioning Polaris anywhere? Because you wanted to take a jab at Harley.

YOU are the one who made this thread about Harley vs. METRIC. Completely missing the point of the article.

Oh but nah, you're not bashing Harley or anything like that...nah
-DBTO

User avatar
MadCow
Site Admin
Posts: 6281
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:36 pm
My Bike: 2023 Pan America Special

Re: Revzilla's take on HD and Polaris low numbers

Post by MadCow »

DevilsFan wrote:
Bullshit. I'd have posted an article on Honda or Suzuki just the same.
That's like saying your not racist "because I have a good friend who is is black...."
-DBTO

Tbeck
Joined a 1200cc Club
Posts: 7607
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2016 10:58 am
My Bike: Concours 1400

Re: Revzilla's take on HD and Polaris low numbers

Post by Tbeck »

Maybe I missed something but I didn't and don't see this post as bashing Harley or Polaris. I thought and think this topic relevant to a MC discussion board.
Let's face it fella's if the American brands fail, the entire MC community takes a huge hit.
I think that the questions being asked are the right questions. Polaris can suck up any MC sales losses because they are a diverse company, but HD only makes MC's and therefore sucking up poor sale's numbers isn't as easy.
Is there a way to increase sale's in the present climate? I think HD is at the whim of the consumer again.
And DF you are correct in that there are far more lightly used HD's than high mileage. It's part of HD's business sales model in cooperation with the finance company. It's flooded the market, but it did bump up sale's. HD's did hold value in the past, and they still do a little better than metric's but not like they did prior to the 96 motor. It wasn't the motor, it was the massive bump in production and the massive hit in resale that has come with each motor increase.

User avatar
MadCow
Site Admin
Posts: 6281
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:36 pm
My Bike: 2023 Pan America Special

Re: Revzilla's take on HD and Polaris low numbers

Post by MadCow »

Tbeck wrote:A sale is a sale, but it doesn't do a thing for employment of worker's or the company stock. Harley already made the money from the initial sale. Selling second hand bike's may keep the dealer door's open but not the factory.

RK, for you or I the quality might be worth an extra buck or two, BUT I have been saying for over a decade that Harley and Polaris have been pricing themselves right out of the game. For example Honda and BMW have been selling their top of the line full dresser's at $26k for the past 6 years, and with all the bells/whistles. The pricing has remained unchanged. In that same period HD has raised their tour by some $8k, and Polaris brought in their Indians at a similar price mark.
Quality of all 4 couldn't be split between a hair, so that's a non-factor. What is a factor is who is willing or ABLE to drop $30k on a recreational product. You and I ride FAR more, and in conditions that 90% don't.
It really comes back to the fad of riding running it's course. Some like ourselves that ride as part of our daily life only make up about 10% of the owner's and consumer's. Think back to the 70's and Harley's troubles.

Thanks Tbeck for rightly debating the article and not making it about Harley.

Yup, I can drop $29K on a decked out RGU (after a ton of extra shit I had put on) and I did. I've dumped just as much into a Goldwing and ended up just selling it because it was uncomfortable for long distance riding *FOR ME*. But what I didn;t like about the Goldwing the most was that the controls/finish/tupperware on it seemed cheap in appearance and feel. My '17 RGU with the 107ci is by far the most comfortable (FOR ME) touring bike I;ve owned to date. Even my FJR1300 kills my knees....I was glad to get off of it after my trip to Arkansas. I knew it's days were numbered after that trip...loved the punch at roll on...but the bike felt cramped....it's more sport than tour.

The article is correct in that HD and Polaris (Indian) are priced a bit too high...but I prefer the higher end fit and finish of my RGU...and honestly...I can drop that kind of coin and it doesn't bother me...and that kind of market for HD and Polaris is small....
-DBTO

User avatar
MadCow
Site Admin
Posts: 6281
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:36 pm
My Bike: 2023 Pan America Special

Re: Revzilla's take on HD and Polaris low numbers

Post by MadCow »

Tbeck wrote:Maybe I missed something but I didn't and don't see this post as bashing Harley or Polaris.

I didn't miss it.
-DBTO

Post Reply