"The owner's responsibility"?

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Re: "The owner's responsibility"?

Post by jeffcoslacker »

SuzyRidr2 wrote: I also believe they've been trained to respond with deadly force first and sort it out later.
Of course they are. Because more often than not, by the time you, as the object of serious life-threatening aggression, have confirmation of that fact, it's in the form of being killed by it.

Now when they dump full mags into a car they say was coming at them...well...I've had people try to run me down before. You get out the way. It's no big deal. :bonk: I understand it indicates a willingness to kill or injure, but the act itself is not particularly life- or injury-threatening. You step aside. Now if they got you pinned or cornered or something...sure.

BUT...sometimes it seems excessive. But I wasn't there, either.

Now a couple of years ago we had an interesting deadly force case. Probably the most egregiously inappropriate use of deadly force by a cop in recent memory. You didn't hear about it because:

1. It wasn't fatal, and
2. It was a white guy he shot

Cops in Springfield got called to the Walmart Neighborhood Market about a panhandler bothering customers near the entrance. When they arrived they recognized the guy, and detained him because he was breaking the law, and they knew him well enough to know he probably had some kind of warrants, he was a known tweaker goofball in the area.

When they confirmed that he had warrants and should be arrested, he struggled and broke away and started running across the lot. At the point one of the cops drew his .40 and shot him one time in the ass cheek. :eek: Sounds like a scene I saw on Reno 911. :lmao:

The cop said it was mistake. He meant to taser him, but grabbed the wrong implement. I say bullshit. They don't look or feel remotely like each other. This was in broad daylight too.

I think this guy was tired of being a cop, tired of playing this retarded daily game with these druggie shitbags, and just said fuck it, I'ma shoot this jerk in the ass and take retirement.

And as indication of how much of a lowlife this dude actually was, he settled out of court for $125,000, out of which he was responsible for the hospital bill. This dude by all rights should have OWNED the city of Springfield if he'd gotten even a halfway competent lawyer.

But I'm sure that sounded like a shit-ton of rock or meth or heroin or whatever his drug of choice was. :donno:

It's the Springfield effect...things happen here that you just wouldn't believe anywhere else. :uhh:

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Re: "The owner's responsibility"?

Post by SuzyRidr2 »

lonerider wrote:
SuzyRidr2 wrote:
Tbeck wrote:I am just going to say it...there have been a rash of cop shooting dog's nationally and we won't even mention the shooting of people under questionable circumstances.
... Police may be shooting 400-500 unarmed people annually. I've felt for a long time that "use of force" training and policy needed to be looked at. ...
Hearing of a police shooting of an unarmed individual invariably provokes the question of whether or not it was necessary. After all, the police are armed and the citizen is unarmed and it sounds like an unfair encounter and should have been handled differently, right?

Well, consider the fact that if a citizen fully cooperates with the police by obeying all lawful orders and is courteous and polite, then the vast majority of all encounters will be safe and non-eventful. But if a citizen resists, doesn't follow commands, has a bad attitude, and in general gives the cop a hard time, then the cop has to apply force to make the subject comply. If that force leads to a hands on struggle, what choice does the cop have but to keep his weapons under control and do what it takes to get the upper hand on the individual. If that leads to a shooting, my opinion is that it had to be done and I place the blame on the individual who brought it upon himself. Too bad, too sad. Another dumbass who got shot unnecessarily.

.
I mostly agree, but have to say that a citizen being discourteous, impolite or having a bad attitude should never be a reason for an officer to escalate a situation. Do as you're instructed or it's all on you seems to be the popular attitude toward these shootings, but I'm not sure I can get on board that train entirely.

Being pulled over or questioned automatically makes people nervous and anxious. Too many people have been shot reaching for the wallet in their pants pocket or console of their vehicle because they were thinking they needed to produce identification. Flustered people don't think well. When an officer already has his weapon drawn and pointed at your maximum body mass, is it asking too much for him to wait until he sees a weapon before squeezing the trigger? That's the question that's pondered by the general public in the aftermath of unarmed shootings.
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Re: "The owner's responsibility"?

Post by jeffcoslacker »

SuzyRidr2 wrote:
lonerider wrote:
SuzyRidr2 wrote:
Tbeck wrote:I am just going to say it...there have been a rash of cop shooting dog's nationally and we won't even mention the shooting of people under questionable circumstances.
... Police may be shooting 400-500 unarmed people annually. I've felt for a long time that "use of force" training and policy needed to be looked at. ...
Hearing of a police shooting of an unarmed individual invariably provokes the question of whether or not it was necessary. After all, the police are armed and the citizen is unarmed and it sounds like an unfair encounter and should have been handled differently, right?

Well, consider the fact that if a citizen fully cooperates with the police by obeying all lawful orders and is courteous and polite, then the vast majority of all encounters will be safe and non-eventful. But if a citizen resists, doesn't follow commands, has a bad attitude, and in general gives the cop a hard time, then the cop has to apply force to make the subject comply. If that force leads to a hands on struggle, what choice does the cop have but to keep his weapons under control and do what it takes to get the upper hand on the individual. If that leads to a shooting, my opinion is that it had to be done and I place the blame on the individual who brought it upon himself. Too bad, too sad. Another dumbass who got shot unnecessarily.

.
I mostly agree, but have to say that a citizen being discourteous, impolite or having a bad attitude should never be a reason for an officer to escalate a situation. Do as you're instructed or it's all on you seems to be the popular attitude toward these shootings, but I'm not sure I can get on board that train entirely.

Being pulled over or questioned automatically makes people nervous and anxious. Too many people have been shot reaching for the wallet in their pants pocket or console of their vehicle because they were thinking they needed to produce identification. Flustered people don't think well. When an officer already has his weapon drawn and pointed at your maximum body mass, is it asking too much for him to wait until he sees a weapon before squeezing the trigger? That's the question that's pondered by the general public in the aftermath of unarmed shootings.
True enough, but in rebuttal I'd say if you watch some real cam-captured cop shootings (where the cop got shot) you also see where it can happen so lightning fast that it's very hard to say that there should be some kind of measurable threshold for an appropriate response...

I recently watched one I'll try to dredge up...cop stopped a guy for traffic violation, guy was driving a big Suburban or Tahoe or something...cop approached it slowly, using his light to look inside the vehicle's cargo area and back seat as he walked up to the driver's door cautiously.

He asked the driver for his stuff, and for a SPLIT SECOND pointed his light in the back seat again, and literally in that half second when he turned back the guy was firing 5-6 shots at him, almost point blank. Zero hesitation on the suspect's part.

The cop actually managed to return several shots into the driver's area as he fell to the ground. The suspect was not hit, but oddly enough so many of the cop's rounds went through the dash and steering column, something critical was hit and the truck died and couldn't be started.

The suspect jumped out and ran. The officer didn't fire at him, and radioed in his situation. He was incredibly cool about it, told the dispatcher he knew one broke his leg and another missed his vest and holed his torso. But he gave great info on the suspect, clothes, direction, etc. I was impressed.

He said later that although he still had rounds left, he didn't fire because he knew he couldn't move and if he didn't land perfect shots, the suspect would have killed him, most likely. Plus he was unable to reach his spare mag in the position he fell into. I thought that was incredibly good critical thinking for that situation. I suspect ex-military.

But that and others I've seen really point out how fast it goes sideways on you. How long you gonna give a situation before you decide to pull the sidearm? In many cases, any hesitation is too much...that I suspect is why they stress being on top of it already.

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Re: "The owner's responsibility"?

Post by jeffcoslacker »

I have a very simple solution, works for me. And I never get shot by cops. [emoji2]

Pull over
Engine off
Window down
Dome light on
Both hands visible
Don't reach for anything until asked
Tell them where it is, so they know where you're reaching
BE POLITE
Don't fidget around while they run your info
Thank them and tell them to have a safe night

Incredibly, this seems to reduce your chance of getting shot to zero. :lmao:

But soooo many people seem to think that just because they don't HAVE to do any of this, that they will make it difficult and uncomfortable for the cop. That's fine. Just don't act baffled about what you get in return. :bang:

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Re: "The owner's responsibility"?

Post by SuzyRidr2 »

Yep. it works both ways, Jeff ... That's why I think the general public needs top be educated. It's hard to understand a cop's perspective in these kinds of situations unless you've been in their shoes. I'll give you a good example. I once stopped to ask an officer who was posted in front of a school for directions to a place of business I was searching for so I could service an ATM. I had my hand behind my back, literally scratching the center of my back, as I approached asking him about the location of the business. He responded something to the effect that he'd be glad to give me directions, but first he needed to see the hand I had behind my back because it was making him nervous. Little things like this quickly raise a cop's radar, but you and I are oblivious to them.
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Re: "The owner's responsibility"?

Post by jeffcoslacker »

SuzyRidr2 wrote:Yep. it works both ways, Jeff ... That's why I think the general public needs top be educated. It's hard to understand a cop's perspective in these kinds of situations unless you've been in their shoes. I'll give you a good example. I once stopped to ask an officer who was posted in front of a school for directions to a place of business I was searching for so I could service an ATM. I had my hand behind my back, literally scratching the center of my back, as I approached asking him about the location of the business. He responded something to the effect that he'd be glad to give me directions, but first he needed to see the hand I had behind my back because it was making him nervous. Little things like this quickly raises a cop's radar, but you and I are oblivious to them.
Yep. That's why I said...always both hands in view. And when sitting waiting for him to run their info, people screw around...grab their phone...start cleaning out the glovebox...tie their shoe...NO...just sit the hell still for five minutes, it won't kill ya. Jeez.

I throw my right arm over the top of the passenger's seat, and put the left on the window opening, no ambiguity, and just get comfortable.

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Re: "The owner's responsibility"?

Post by jeffcoslacker »

I think I've told the story before, but I was at cop gunpoint many years ago due to a comedy of errors. And if I'd been a jackass about it, failed to comply, or any of that nonsense you see people doing because they think that if THEY know they aren't doing wrong, the COP should automatically know that as well...because they only hire psychics, you know. :bonk:

So my neighbor across the street in the mobile homes calls and says her water supply line in the back of her unit exploded from the cold and is leaking inside the wall. I grab a gym bag kinda thing, and throw some tools in, and go across the street.

I had to remove the panel where the utilities come through, kinda high up on the back of the mobile. I leaned in, shut the water off, got out my flashlight, sized up what I was going to need to go get to fix it, and headed back around the front so I could grab more stuff from home. I was only back there a few minutes.

I come walking around the corner of her fence, and almost literally crash into a cop heading back there...kinda surprised each other. We both stepped back and he drew and said drop the bag and show me your hands. I had one hand deep in my coat pocket, the other holding the bag, it was freakin' cold out.

So what do I do? I start arguing with him that I'm just here fixing a pipe and what the hell is he doing pointing a gun at me, I dint do nuffin, I ain't gotta show you shit, fuckin pig...

No of course I didn't do that. THAT's how ya get shot, kids. :bang:

I dropped the bag and showed my hands of course, and waited for him to ask the questions. He looked in the bag, then started to talk to me when Lynn, the old lady who lived there, poked her head out the door and started giving the cop a hard time, telling him I'm her neighbor, he's fixing my trailer...he told her to come out and she flat out told him NO, I'm in my house, I'm old, and it's cold out :lmao: it was funny but at the same time I'm thinking this ain't the moment for that feisty old gal stuff, Lynn. Dude had a bead on me 90 seconds ago...

Then the neighbor came out. This lady had just moved in like a month prior, didn't recognize me, and from where she was looking had just heard me thumping around, then seemingly trying to get inside Lynn's trailer...so she'd called it in a break-in in progress. So naturally the cop was a little high-strung.

We got it ironed out. No biggie, nobody had to get shot. :lolfall:

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Re: "The owner's responsibility"?

Post by BlacktopTravelr »

lonerider wrote: Hearing of a police shooting of an unarmed individual invariably provokes the question of whether or not it was necessary. After all, the police are armed and the citizen is unarmed and it sounds like an unfair encounter and should have been handled differently, right?

Well, consider the fact that if a citizen fully cooperates with the police by obeying all lawful orders and is courteous and polite, then the vast majority of all encounters will be safe and non-eventful. But if a citizen resists, doesn't follow commands, has a bad attitude, and in general gives the cop a hard time, then the cop has to apply force to make the subject comply. If that force leads to a hands on struggle, what choice does the cop have but to keep his weapons under control and do what it takes to get the upper hand on the individual. If that leads to a shooting, my opinion is that it had to be done and I place the blame on the individual who brought it upon himself. Too bad, too sad. Another dumbass who got shot unnecessarily.
You have way too much faith in the LEO. I speak from first hand knowledge that not all LEO's are like you want to believe. I was beat up by a cop over twice my size and with my hands handcuffed behind my back in front of the FD/Police dispatcher. We went to see the city attorney the next day and showed him the bruises. He asked if anyone saw it and I told him and all he could say was... well, who would the court believe the arresting officer or the local dispatcher? He never even talked to the dispatcher to see what happened. The Leo was fired two months later by the Police Chief because of too many complaints of excessive force. The Leo happened to be a retired MP and was used to using too much force bringing in a suspect.
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Re: "The owner's responsibility"?

Post by Tbeck »

lonerider, well you must prescribe to training being provided and not to how it should be done.
Why would or should there be confrontation? A good cop knows how to prevent escalation, and how to defuse confrontation. Unfortunately we have too damn many on the street that think wearing a badge gives them license to be an asshole. They're trained that way, and that's the problem.
Unfortunately as you've pointed out most couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag, hence their reliance on weapon's.
So we have a number of training problems; situational, weapons, and self defense. Any of the aforementioned alone is a recipe for disaster, all three and we get lot's of news stories.
There are good cop's, but they are unfortunately becoming fewer and further between. This is what happens when your training programs aren't appropriate for the job, and when the cost of training over rides selective disqualification.

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Re: "The owner's responsibility"?

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Cops can’t fight? Well, I invite you to visit the presence of several departments that I have been very familiar with over the decades. Santa Clara County Sheriff’s. Alameda County Sheriff’s. Oakland P D. Those boys will street fight you into submission so fast and hard that you’ll learn a lifetime’s lesson in good manners such as you’ll never forget. I’ve seen simple arm bars and head/neck holds applied while quiet warnings whispered tame some really mean resisters. Oakland has its share of gangs, but there’s two gangs you just don’t want any part of... Oakland PD and Oakland HA.
I might add, ive lived for periods of time in the Boston area. Big Irish and Italian cops that are downright scary street fighters.
I’ve personally known a lot of men, both LEO and outlaw, who in action employ various martial art skills (jiujitsu, stick, kick, grappling) with innate street fighting skills in manners ranging from deadly to total quick submission to frightening.
I posit that so many LEOs these days are quick to use guns is not because they can’t fight but simply because so many of them have become targets of chicken shit gunsels.

But, back to what is for me the theme of this thread... it’s a crying shame that beautiful innocent dogs have to be caught up in the wars and violence of man. I have become old and physically slow and crippled and afraid of the violence, from both cops and bad guys, to the point that sadly Mossberg and Ruger are my only recourse. My dogs are my family, they need only bark, I’ll do for the rest. It is my job to protect my family.
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Re: "The owner's responsibility"?

Post by lonerider »

Using too much force.....I submit that a cop on the job long enough is pretty tired of dealing with BS dirtbags and therefore tends to submit a resister as quickly and as painlessly (for him) as possible.

The dogs.....The way I see it the dog owners came home, observed police activity in the area, and then let the dogs out. In hindsight, they probably should have kept them in until the police ended the search. The odds were high that a dog would get hurt if they encountered the fugitive OR the police.

.

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Re: "The owner's responsibility"?

Post by Suzuki Johnny »

In some ways I can understand the LEO's position....if it's dark out and he's using a flashlight for guidance and a huge dog appears out of nowhere..barking and showing signs of aggression..not knowing what kind of animal breed it is...what's he or she to do?????

On the other hand just shooting an animal because they feel threatened is no excuse to defend oneself.....unless the animal attacks the LEO....
that's an entirely different situation....

I have a pretty big back yard..and it is lit with a security light that affords enough light to distinguish what or where a threat may exit....only area not illuminated is when my huge fig tree is in full bloom and several places behind my sheds....Under no circumstances would I allow my dog to be the first to investigate any appearance of wrong doing.....me and Ruger Blackhawk go out first to investigate [emoji106]
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Re: "The owner's responsibility"?

Post by Tbeck »

lonerider, if the cop is tired of dealing with dirt bags, he should look into an occupational change. I know many cops on the job for decades, who don't ascribe to the picture you paint. If you can't control yourself on the job get a new one.

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Re: "The owner's responsibility"?

Post by jeffcoslacker »

Tbeck wrote:lonerider, if the cop is tired of dealing with dirt bags, he should look into an occupational change. I know many cops on the job for decades, who don't ascribe to the picture you paint. If you can't control yourself on the job get a new one.
That's why I'd want no part of it. I'd shoot someone in the ass first day. Guaranteed.

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Re: "The owner's responsibility"?

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Tbeck wrote:lonerider, if the cop is tired of dealing with dirt bags, he should look into an occupational change. I know many cops on the job for decades, who don't ascribe to the picture you paint. If you can't control yourself on the job get a new one.
Well, reckon that depends on your definition of control? I agree that it means hitting the target, yar?
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Re: "The owner's responsibility"?

Post by BlacktopTravelr »

As most of you have read, a reserve deputy in Tulsa shot and killed a man and the deputies excuse was he mistook his service weapon for his taser. The man was unarmed and not a threat to anyone. The deputy didn't need to draw any type of weapon but did and shot the unarmed black man. My take on the situation is that there was a lack of proper training and the deputy shouldn't have been hired in the first place as he didn't want to be in a position where he might need to draw his weapon. :blink:
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Re: "The owner's responsibility"?

Post by lonerider »

T, I don't see why ANY law-abiding citizen should care how rough a cop is on a suspect if he's staying just this side of the line. Getting stopped and questioned and maybe detained for further investigation shouldn't necessarily be a Sunday picnic, especially if there is just cause for the stop. I've gone my whole life without a run in with the police, and it's because I make a point of it to avoid such. Rough 'em up a little and maybe they won't be back for more.

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Re: "The owner's responsibility"?

Post by Tbeck »

lonerider, I am not opposed to the cop's bruising someone up if that's what happens during the arrest process due to resisting. I am opposed to cop's not doing the job correctly.
A dog comes near you or I, even growling and snapping, we cannot shoot the dog if we're carrying. It's illegal, so why can a cop?
Now if the dog attacked him as he attempts to withdraw, different story.
Same goes with a cop wanting to talk to me...He can talk all he wants and I am still going to keep my mouth shut and walk away. You said something important, probable cause and/or reasonable suspicion.
What we see a lot these day's is cop's who think the badge gives them power the law doesn't. This goes back to the use of taser's I mentioned. Why is it the cop's and a good number of people feel it's acceptable to us a taser to apprehend? It is a "less than lethal" weapon which should only be used in a situation in which lethal force is justified. Yet cop's use it for apprehension routinely to avoid physical interaction. If a cop can't take someone into custody without a weapon he needs better training or a new job.
I am an A-hole with the cop's. I am because I don't do anything that would warrant a stop, questions, or delay. So if/when they do, I SERIOUSLY bust their ball's. I am not an advocate of cop's abusing their authority or violating an individuals rights. So if a cop "roughs" someone up to take them into custody, I can't say I agree with the cops conduct, and it tells me that the cop needs better training.
Remember that the cop isn't judge, jury, or executioner. Doing so violates the individuals rights.

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Re: "The owner's responsibility"?

Post by jeffcoslacker »

Cops seem to usually have pepper spray, which does work on dogs, but in this instance my guess is they already had sidearms drawn during the structure search and when he came out of the door and saw the dog coming that's what he used reflexively. Not saying it's right, but again, the situation sometimes dictates your options.

Some people are pretty scared of dogs. Some people could care less. I can tell whether a dog coming at me is excited or curious or angry. A lotta people can't.

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Re: "The owner's responsibility"?

Post by lonerider »

Yep, some folks are downright terrified when they see a loose dog. Most of the time they run up and say howdy dog style and have no malicious intent. I always carry pepper spray, though, when I take my mountain bike out on the back roads, and I can usually tell if I will need it or not. Needing it is very rare, but one time a big boxer type dog charged me from a farm house and I got the spray ready. I held back because It looked friendly, and it was. As I raced along it took my right foot in it's mouth and playfully tried to pull me off the bike, but after yelling "NO" a couple of times it let go and dropped back and I was on my way.

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