Make the Military Weak Again !!!!

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Re: Make the Military Weak Again !!!!

Post by Tbeck »

DF, I know you are :wink:

Sgt, That's a shame if the humint guy's aren't capable to be kicking in door's any longer. When I was in they were stand alone and embedded. They were able to go anywhere and do anything combat related. Having said that the AF has created new identifiers and specialties by swapping duties around, since I was in so who knows what training they get now.

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Re: Make the Military Weak Again !!!!

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Tbeck wrote:
Tue Feb 21, 2023 4:19 pm
DF, I know you are :wink:

Sgt, That's a shame if the humint guy's aren't capable to be kicking in door's any longer. When I was in they were stand alone and embedded. They were able to go anywhere and do anything combat related. Having said that the AF has created new identifiers and specialties by swapping duties around, since I was in so who knows what training they get now.
Never work with a AF HUMINT team so I don't know what they do. We just didn't trust anyone that didn't train with us, just like the SF and SFOD teams made us stick to cordon missions during their raids.
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Re: Make the Military Weak Again !!!!

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They are renaming Fort Benning (Home of the Infantry) to Fort Moore in honor of Hal Moore from "We Were Soldiers". Nothing against LTG Moore he was a great leader but the fact that we are renaming a place that so many Infantrymen were 'born' it just the capstone to the wokeness in the current military. Complete Bull Shit.

https://www.facebook.com/FortBenningMCo ... 403636082/
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Re: Make the Military Weak Again !!!!

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Re: Make the Military Weak Again !!!!

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More proof that we are actively working to destroy our fighting force.

Marine Corps Axes Elite Scout Sniper Platoons
https://www.military.com/daily-news/202 ... _230228.nl

The Marine Corps is getting rid of one of its most elite and storied jobs -- the scout sniper.

Official message traffic leaked to social media last week described a switch from scout sniper platoons to what will only be known only as "scout platoons."

The change is part of Force Design 2030 (FD2030), the Marine Corps' ongoing and controversial effort to reinvent the service for future warfare. The decision has already triggered concerns from within the ranks about the loss of sniper capabilities.

All three training locations for the grueling 3-month Scout Sniper course at Camp Pendleton, California; Camp Lejeune, North Carolina; and Marine Corps Base Quantico, Virginia, will stop admitting new students starting in fiscal 2024, according to the message.

A spokesman for the Marine Corps confirmed that the scout sniper platoons would be eliminated, but said that the underlying skill set would be integrated elsewhere in the service.

"Precision rifle capability will remain within the infantry company, and the Marine Corps will continue to maintain school-trained snipers within Marine Reconnaissance and Marine Special Operations units," said service spokesman Capt. Ryan Bruce.

Bruce added that the Marine Corps' Training Command "is in the process of analyzing both the new scout platoon mission and enduring requirements for precision marksmanship capabilities to determine the performance standards and training options necessary."

Snipers are qualified to venture 10 to 20 miles beyond the forward line of troops, into the enemy's domain. Reconnaissance skills, like days-long observation of enemy outposts, are tough to maintain, as is the ability to shoot long distances with different sophisticated rifle systems. They're trained in how to call for fire and close-air support, and have to understand complex mission planning requirements.

The messages outlining the changes, posted to social media, described the move as being driven by the two-year-long "Infantry Battalion Experimentation" the Corps undertook, which "showed the scouting capabilities in the newly designed Infantry Companies were insufficient to offer the Battalion continuous all-weather information gathering."

Unlike tanks and select artillery capabilities, which were publicly put on the chopping block early during the force design rethink, the Marine Corps has remained mostly quiet on the future of snipers until now.

The new "scout platoons" will consist of 26 Marines. Infantry companies will no longer have Marines trained as snipers, but they will keep "designated marksmen."

It's not the first time the Corps has dropped the scout snipers.

The Marine Corps previously canned the program after World War I, World War II and Vietnam, anticipating that future warfare wouldn't require snipers.

Scout snipers are a storied part of Marine Corps history.

During WWII, scout snipers known as the "40 Thieves on Saipan" operated far behind enemy lines and grew famous for their silent killing techniques. And before "American Sniper," there was Carlos Hathcock, a Vietnam War Marine with 93 confirmed kills (and up to 300 unconfirmed kills), and Chuck Mawhinney, another Vietnam sniper with more than 100 confirmed kills.

The Marine Corps' commandant, Gen. David Berger, has been vocal about wanting infantry Marines to become well-versed in multiple weapons systems -- less specialized and more "commando-like."

But some Marines, who spoke with Military.com about the service's decision to eliminate scout snipers on condition of anonymity, say that kind of mindset highlights a misunderstanding of the extreme capabilities snipers provide and the importance of their uncompromising training.

"We're talking out of both sides of our mouth here," said one Marine gunner, a weapons expert. "We don't want to divest the equipment because we know we need that capability," he said, pointing out that tough-to-master sniper rifles aren't going anywhere.

"You just can't pick up an advanced sniper rifle and hand it to somebody and expect them to be able to do what a trained sniper can do," the Marine added.

Instead, the Corps will rely on training up Marines through the two-week-long Designated Marksman course.

It's unclear how "scout platoons" will be trained, as there is currently no stand-alone "scouting" course within the Marine Corps.

Scout snipers have faced a serious shortage of numbers in recent years, which some say is due in part to a too-high attrition rate from the scout sniper schoolhouses. Fewer Marines finishing the course means fewer snipers overall.

Others see it differently.

"Part of this is a retention problem," said a Marine officer who's involved with current scout sniper training efforts. The Marine said that, because being a sniper is a secondary responsibility, it gets short shrift from higher-ups.

"A lot of them want to keep doing their jobs as snipers," the Marine added. "So they get out, and they go to the SEALs, Army Special Forces or MARSOC. I've seen it happen multiple times. They don't want to stay because they're not valued properly."

Previous reporting suggests there may be anywhere from 150 to 300 scout snipers in the Marine Corps. Save for snipers produced through stand-alone courses with Reconnaissance and MARSOC units, numbers will likely plummet, given the closing of the sniper schools.

In 2018, then-Commandant Gen. Robert Neller sought to increase scout snipers' numbers, amidst the shortage. The Marine Corps Warfighting Laboratory reportedly recommended an increase in sniper platoon numbers around the same time.

While snipers are set to remain at MARSOC and Recon, Marines point out that MARSOC snipers are likely to be under the purview of their Special Operations Command structure, and aren't likely to be easily dispersed throughout the service. And while Recon will maintain snipers, their small numbers and specialized, high-level missions leave the majority of Marine infantry units out in the cold.

"I think a lot of senior commanders don't really understand the full capability that a sniper brings to them," lamented a senior enlisted sniper.

"Snipers can't be mass-produced," he continued. "They're trying to mass-produce capabilities and cutting corners, thinking that numbers on a spreadsheet is what will win wars. But it's not; all it's going to do is fill body bags."

-- Kelsey Baker is a freelance journalist and former active-duty Marine. She can be reached at bakerkelsey@protonmail.com.



Related Topics: Military Headlines Marine Corps Topics Snipers Marine Corps Training
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Re: Make the Military Weak Again !!!!

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Say it ain't so joe! :fu:
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Re: Make the Military Weak Again !!!!

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Just looking at this point.

"Snipers can't be mass-produced," he continued. "They're trying to mass-produce capabilities and cutting corners, thinking that numbers on a spreadsheet is what will win wars. But it's not; all it's going to do is fill body bags."

I had a Soldier many years ago that was a great shooter, prior to the army he won multiple awards in rifle and hand gun competitions. He even made one of the gun magazines at one point. But you know what? He failed sniper school twice. Sniper school is not all about shooting and he just couldn't handle the rest of the skill set. For some of the jobs in the military we need people that can do the entire job not just part of it. Just like if a Solider scores high on a fitness test it does not mean they are ready for SF.
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Re: Make the Military Weak Again !!!!

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A retired U.S Navy commander who serves on the Naval Academy’s Alumni Association Board of Trustees defended the Navy enlisting a drag queen influencer to appeal to recruits.

According to a report by Fox News Digital, Commander (Ret.) Julianna Vida said the Navy using Yeoman 2nd Class Joshua Kelley as a Navy Digital Ambassadors (NDAs) is a “critical” method of welcoming “traditionally excluded segments of our population.”

Kelley is an active-duty enlisted sailor and a drag queen who goes by the stage name “Harpy Daniels,” and says he has performed on ships during deployments for fellow sailors.

Visa said using Kelley to recruit sailors should be “applauded and supported,” and slammed Sen. Tommy Tuberville (R-AL) for criticizing the move.

Tuberville recently wrote in an op-ed in the Wall Street Journal that China is focusing on building its military, while the Pentagon is focused on “woke identity politics.”

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2023 ... applauded/
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Re: Make the Military Weak Again !!!!

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Sgt, I am afraid that the military is just playing the hand they've been given. It started a LONG time ago and it is still evolving. I don't know when you served but I do know that the change I saw by 96 when I retired was more than I ever thought it could change. Since then I have seen it get completely crazy, lazy, and morally bankrupt (by my standards). I'm positive that it changed from the time my grandfather served to my father, and then me, so it's going to continue, that's for sure.
I see it this way; society changes and those who will be serving in the near future have grown up with those changes as the norm. So while you and I shake our head, they don't see anything unusual.

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Re: Make the Military Weak Again !!!!

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Tbeck wrote:
Tue May 09, 2023 2:50 pm
Sgt, I am afraid that the military is just playing the hand they've been given. It started a LONG time ago and it is still evolving. I don't know when you served but I do know that the change I saw by 96 when I retired was more than I ever thought it could change. Since then I have seen it get completely crazy, lazy, and morally bankrupt (by my standards). I'm positive that it changed from the time my grandfather served to my father, and then me, so it's going to continue, that's for sure.
I see it this way; society changes and those who will be serving in the near future have grown up with those changes as the norm. So while you and I shake our head, they don't see anything unusual.
I see things like this as making the military weaker and dividing the troops. Those that serve to defend the nation and are willing to test every part of their being to do so and the ones that just want the paycheck. The one thing that should be the determining factor for any change made in the military is "does this make the military more lethal?" If the answer is no then there is no need for the change. Just like females in combat arms and trans people in the ranks they serve no purpose to make a better more lethal military.
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Re: Make the Military Weak Again !!!!

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Also, I joined in 1991 and retired in 2018 so I saw the first hand affects of this entire process.
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Re: Make the Military Weak Again !!!!

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sgtcall wrote:
Tue May 09, 2023 6:15 pm
Also, I joined in 1991 and retired in 2018 so I saw the first hand affects of this entire process.
1975 to 2005. I remember when walking throught the barracks you could alwayss smell pot. Then regs against it put the brakes on that shit..

For a while things went fairly well then the cutbacks of the 90's and Don't ask, don't tell.

Then came the 2000's and the shit started to hit the fan with more allowance for the fringe groups.

During the 80's and 90's I started to see more and more officers that were on the left to a fairly large degree. Bunch of up and coming candy asses.

Since I left the downhill slide has accelerated...

There are still a helluva lot of great warriors in the service but they being replaced with people that want a paycheck and really don't give a damn about the service, especially the officers that I didn't like that have moved up through the ranks to become policy makers.

Officers like Milley are making policy decisions, officers that should have been forced out, or court marshalled for treason, are now in charge.
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Re: Make the Military Weak Again !!!!

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Sgt, but aren't you making some assumptions? What's to say that the folk's in question actually cause any division, or weaken the military? If the troops serving currently accept the current practice as the norm, than it's a non-issue. You and I weren't raised in a way that makes a lot of today's accepted practices acceptable, but the current generation has been.

Herb brought up don't ask don't tell. He's obviously not aware that policy was anti-gay rather than pro. Lot's of people believe it allowed gay's in when in fact it made discharging them easier.

When I was in it wasn't unusual to see folks retire at E4 and since I got out they toss you out if you don't make E5 first enlistment. Times change.

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Re: Make the Military Weak Again !!!!

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During my final six months the reenlistment officer offered me the moon and at the time I didn’t even realize my apparent value. I do now, more and more as the years pass. Immediately on signing, advance to E5. Fifteen hundred signing bonus, plus a brand new Alfa Romeo sports car from the PX to be shipped free of charge to the world when I got ready to rotate. Guaranteed upon signing, rotate back to world within six months to attend OCS. He even brought the papers into the enlisted men’s club and layed them on the table before me as I sat drinking with about 15 buddies who all had a great laugh and of course I joined them. What a fool. I obviously didn’t have a whole lot of self esteem. I likely would have worn the gold bars to Nam and that wouldn’t have had a very long shelf life, but who knows. Oft times over the years as I watched the body count on tv, I felt guilt, as though I could have made a difference. I feel to this day that I let my country down and missed out on what could have been a successful career doing my best to make The US Army stronger.
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Re: Make the Military Weak Again !!!!

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Tbeck wrote:
Wed May 10, 2023 1:51 pm
Sgt, but aren't you making some assumptions? What's to say that the folk's in question actually cause any division, or weaken the military? If the troops serving currently accept the current practice as the norm, than it's a non-issue. You and I weren't raised in a way that makes a lot of today's accepted practices acceptable, but the current generation has been.

Herb brought up don't ask don't tell. He's obviously not aware that policy was anti-gay rather than pro. Lot's of people believe it allowed gay's in when in fact it made discharging them easier.

When I was in it wasn't unusual to see folks retire at E4 and since I got out they toss you out if you don't make E5 first enlistment. Times change.
You do realize that trans gender people at any stage of transition are on a non-deployable profile. The transition takes several years to complete but even then it takes constant medical attention that may not be available in a combat zone. Deployments by the way are for an extended period to a combat zone or humanitarian mission not the Air Force version of every time you leave your home base. So given this profile issue these people cannot go to the fight so they are worthless to the military. I don't care what people say about the value someone can still bring to a unit if they can't deploy to me they are worthless.

War-fighting, at the lowest level, in the Army is based on the tactics of a 9 man squad not 8 with one on rear detachment.
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Re: Make the Military Weak Again !!!!

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:lmao: yes you poor Army guy's are the only one's to ever deploy to a hostile environment :lmao: . Iran, Panama, Grenada, Honduras, Bosnia, and more deployments to the Gulf than I want to count. I get what it means to deploy, to live rough, and to rely on a team, so please don't talk down to me.
I've lived it and I've lived through the changing internal dynamics of the service. MOS or Afsc dictate the service members duties and not every MOS or Afsc necessitate world wide deployment, NEVER has.
I agree that if the members Afsc or most requires world wide deployability and they aren't able to meet that obligation, they should be separated from the service. I don't care if it's transitioning treatment or pregnancy, they can't meet their obligations and therefore should be separated. However that has never been the practice or policy. So we could beat this topic until the cows come home and it isn't going to change a thing. There will always be those who DO serve, and those who will just enlist.

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Re: Make the Military Weak Again !!!!

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sgtcall wrote:
Wed May 10, 2023 4:37 pm
Tbeck wrote:
Wed May 10, 2023 1:51 pm
Sgt, but aren't you making some assumptions? What's to say that the folk's in question actually cause any division, or weaken the military? If the troops serving currently accept the current practice as the norm, than it's a non-issue. You and I weren't raised in a way that makes a lot of today's accepted practices acceptable, but the current generation has been.

Herb brought up don't ask don't tell. He's obviously not aware that policy was anti-gay rather than pro. Lot's of people believe it allowed gay's in when in fact it made discharging them easier.

When I was in it wasn't unusual to see folks retire at E4 and since I got out they toss you out if you don't make E5 first enlistment. Times change.
You do realize that trans gender people at any stage of transition are on a non-deployable profile. The transition takes several years to complete but even then it takes constant medical attention that may not be available in a combat zone. Deployments by the way are for an extended period to a combat zone or humanitarian mission not the Air Force version of every time you leave your home base. So given this profile issue these people cannot go to the fight so they are worthless to the military. I don't care what people say about the value someone can still bring to a unit if they can't deploy to me they are worthless.

War-fighting, at the lowest level, in the Army is based on the tactics of a 9 man squad not 8 with one on rear detachment.
Once again T is wrong. I remember what it was like before "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" and it was not anti "gay", It was pro "gay" and we were not allowed to ask.

One of the units I was in had a guy that admitted to one of his friends that he was "gay", he was gone the next morning...

"Don't Ask, Don't Tell" made it so that if they could keep it a secret they could serve.

I agree with you about being non-deployable, waste of time, trouble and money to train them and intergrate them into the unit and then they couldn't go with the unit. 1 or 2 in a unit fucks up the whole plan.

I remember when they first started putting women in combat units and they couldn't deploy. screwed up the manning of the shops in the Air Wing.

One of my best electricians was a woman but we couldn't even take her on a combat field exercise to the Stumps.
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Re: Make the Military Weak Again !!!!

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Tbeck wrote:
Wed May 10, 2023 5:02 pm
:lmao: yes you poor Army guy's are the only one's to ever deploy to a hostile environment :lmao: . Iran, Panama, Grenada, Honduras, Bosnia, and more deployments to the Gulf than I want to count. I get what it means to deploy, to live rough, and to rely on a team, so please don't talk down to me.
I've lived it and I've lived through the changing internal dynamics of the service. MOS or Afsc dictate the service members duties and not every MOS or Afsc necessitate world wide deployment, NEVER has.
I agree that if the members Afsc or most requires world wide deployability and they aren't able to meet that obligation, they should be separated from the service. I don't care if it's transitioning treatment or pregnancy, they can't meet their obligations and therefore should be separated. However that has never been the practice or policy. So we could beat this topic until the cows come home and it isn't going to change a thing. There will always be those who DO serve, and those who will just enlist.
My neighbor at my last house was AirForce and one day another guy asked me how many times I had been deployed, I said 6. My neighbor then chimed in that he had been deployed over 80 times and had only been in for 9 years. He never even left the continental US. I told him we call that TDY not a deployment, he tried to tell me it was the same thing. I really never cared much for that guy. Later he deployed to Qatar for 6 months and came home thinking he was a hero. Qatar is where we go for RnR during a deployment, its called Combat Stress Reduction and the base is run by MWR.
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Re: Make the Military Weak Again !!!!

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It's hard to shoot when partially transed, one tit and one testicle.

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Re: Make the Military Weak Again !!!!

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Nav, ain't that the truth :lmao: .

Herb, you are CORRECT the service couldn't ask anyone if they were gay. HOWEVER you missed the second part, DON'T TELL!
If a service member said that they were gay or openly displayed they were OUT! Prior to don't ask don't tell it was much more difficult to get someone out who was gay. The policy signed into law by Clinton removed ALL the barriers the service's faced when trying to discharge an individual for being gay.
So one more time so you don't look stupid by saying I am wrong; under don't ask don't tell, an individual who disclosed they were gay, by ANY means, was discharge immediately WITHOUT any additional due process. It was an anti-gay regulation, and much harsher than the previous policies. That's why it was repealed.
Look at the BMT discharge rates shortly after DADT went into practice. It went through the roof because all a person needed to do is say they were gay and out they went with no questions asked.

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