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Rolls with clutch lever released
Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2024 5:46 pm
by Amourmechant
Hello.
Was on the highway and my clutch gave way. I thought my friction plates wore out. Changed the plates, with new springs and hardware. Bled the clutch fluid, fairly certain I have no air in the system. Still have the problem. With the rear tire off the ground. I can put it in first, the rear tire spins, but it sounds like something is in the case is rubbing. It is not the driveshaft or final drive end of the things.
I did notice when replacing friction plates, the basket is not fixed to the big gear behind it. In a how-to video, the basket is fixed to the gear. It is not mentioned in the video, but I noticed. I can't find any information on whether it's supposed to be fixed or not.
I also checked the slave cylinder, it engages when I squeeze the clutch lever. It's hard to say whether it has enough force to push the rod. But regardless, if the rod wasn't pushed, the bike would not roll freely.
Re: Rolls with clutch lever released
Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2024 6:30 pm
by sgtcall
Amourmechant wrote: ↑Sat Jan 27, 2024 5:46 pm
Hello.
Was on the highway and my clutch gave way. I thought my friction plates wore out. Changed the plates, with new springs and hardware. Bled the clutch fluid, fairly certain I have no air in the system. Still have the problem. With the rear tire off the ground. I can put it in first, the rear tire spins, but it sounds like something is in the case is rubbing. It is not the driveshaft or final drive end of the things.
I did notice when replacing friction plates, the basket is not fixed to the big gear behind it. In a how-to video, the basket is fixed to the gear. It is not mentioned in the video, but I noticed. I can't find any information on whether it's supposed to be fixed or not.
I also checked the slave cylinder, it engages when I squeeze the clutch lever. It's hard to say whether it has enough force to push the rod. But regardless, if the rod wasn't pushed, the bike would not roll freely.
Sometimes the seals in the clutch master cylinder crack and need to be replaced. Also getting all the air out of the system is a PIA. Plenty of threads on here covering bleeding the clutch.
Re: Rolls with clutch lever released
Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2024 6:36 pm
by hillsy v2
Amourmechant wrote: ↑Sat Jan 27, 2024 5:46 pm
I did notice when replacing friction plates, the basket is not fixed to the big gear behind it. In a how-to video, the basket is fixed to the gear. It is not mentioned in the video, but I noticed. I can't find any information on whether it's supposed to be fixed or not.
Do you mean the basket spins but not the gear? It is supposed to be fixed. The gear drives off the crankshaft and turns the basket making drive.
If this is happening then that is your problem. And it's a pretty big problem if that is the case - it means the rivets holding the basket have sheared and to be honest I've never seen that.
Re: Rolls with clutch lever released
Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2024 10:20 am
by Amourmechant
Yeah. I may have mistaken the clutch hub spinning with the clutch basket spinning. I'm gonna crack it open again and check. But certainly, rolls through all gear with clutch lever released.
Goes into gears with clutch lever squeezed. It takes practically no effort to squeeze clutch lever. I've bled the clutch with a tube rom bleed valve into a bottle with fluid. I squeeze lever several times, open valve, close valve, release lever. Innumerous times.
I thought it may be the transmission or the shift fork, but it goes through gears, and most notably, it goes into neutral.
In first gear, there is just enough pull on the rear drive that the rear tire spins... very little. Pulling the clutch lever in does nothing, tire continues to spin. There is a slight rumble noise.
Re: Rolls with clutch lever released
Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2024 10:23 am
by sgtcall
Amourmechant wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2024 10:20 am
Yeah. I may have mistaken the clutch hub spinning with the clutch basket spinning. I'm gonna crack it open again and check. But certainly, rolls through all gear with clutch lever released.
Goes into gears with clutch lever squeezed. It takes practically no effort to squeeze clutch lever. I've bled the clutch with a tube rom bleed valve into a bottle with fluid. I squeeze lever several times, open valve, close valve, release lever. Innumerous times.
I thought it may be the transmission or the shift fork, but it goes through gears, and most notably, it goes into neutral.
In first gear, there is just enough pull on the rear drive that the rear tire spins... very little. Pulling the clutch lever in does nothing, tire continues to spin. There is a slight rumble noise.
You have air in the clutch fluid. Get a mighty vac to pull new fluid through the system.
Re: Rolls with clutch lever released
Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2024 10:28 am
by sgtcall
Night Wolf has a good thread on clutch bleeding.
https://www.intruderalert.ca/indexa.htm
Re: Rolls with clutch lever released
Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2024 11:36 am
by Herb
Take a look at this, it appears that the gear is attached to the basket. I am pretty sure that the gear is solid on the basket.
https://www.suzukipartshouse.com/oempar ... 1ac/clutch
I have an engine off of a 99 but I don't think the basket will work on yours becase of the model number. Mine is the 5 speed and yours is the 4 speed.
Re: Rolls with clutch lever released
Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2024 12:09 pm
by sgtcall
Herb, I think this is another case of going to the hard fix over the easy fix. We all know the clutch plates last, almost, forever. How many times has someone on here had a clutch issue and went straight for the plates instead of the clutch fluid, MC or slave?
The questions are......
How old was the clutch fluid?
Are there any leaks in the system allowing air in?
then...
Start looking at the clutch itself.
Also, How many miles on the bike? If it's under 60-70k would it even be in the range of new plates?
What were the measurements of the old plates? Were they actually worn?
Re: Rolls with clutch lever released
Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2024 4:01 pm
by hillsy v2
If the clutch system has been bled than it sounds to me like he needs to pull the clutch cover off again and have another look at the basket. It's possible the basket nut has come loose and the entire basket has disengaged from the crankshaft. Seen that before.
Keep in mind if there is air in the clutch system the default is for the clutch to be engaged, not disengaged. A blocked return hole can keep the clutch disengaged though - although this should stop if you crack the bleed nipple on the slave cylinder.
Re: Rolls with clutch lever released
Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2024 5:13 pm
by sgtcall
hillsy v2 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2024 4:01 pm
If the clutch system has been bled than it sounds to me like he needs to pull the clutch cover off again and have another look at the basket. It's possible the basket nut has come loose and the entire basket has disengaged from the crankshaft. Seen that before.
Keep in mind if there is air in the clutch system the default is for the clutch to be engaged, not disengaged. A blocked return hole can keep the clutch disengaged though - although this should stop if you crack the bleed nipple on the slave cylinder.
When the seals in MC went bad the bike would pull forward with the clutch pulled in. Another time I accidentally pulled out to much fluid during a fluid change and got air in the system, had the same issue of the bike pulling till I got it bleed correctly.
Re: Rolls with clutch lever released
Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2024 5:29 pm
by hillsy v2
sgtcall wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2024 5:13 pm
hillsy v2 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2024 4:01 pm
If the clutch system has been bled than it sounds to me like he needs to pull the clutch cover off again and have another look at the basket. It's possible the basket nut has come loose and the entire basket has disengaged from the crankshaft. Seen that before.
Keep in mind if there is air in the clutch system the default is for the clutch to be engaged, not disengaged. A blocked return hole can keep the clutch disengaged though - although this should stop if you crack the bleed nipple on the slave cylinder.
When the seals in MC went bad the bike would pull forward with the clutch pulled in. Another time I accidentally pulled out to much fluid during a fluid change and got air in the system, had the same issue of the bike pulling till I got it bleed correctly.
Are you talking about the bike pulling forward when running? His problem is the opposite.
Re: Rolls with clutch lever released
Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2024 5:37 pm
by sgtcall
Hillsy,
then what does this mean?
Amourmechant wrote: ↑Sat Jan 27, 2024 5:46 pm
With the rear tire off the ground. I can put it in first, the rear tire spins, but it sounds like something is in the case is rubbing. It is not the driveshaft or final drive end of the things.
In first gear, there is just enough pull on the rear drive that the rear tire spins... very little. Pulling the clutch lever in does nothing, tire continues to spin.
Re: Rolls with clutch lever released
Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2024 5:50 pm
by Amourmechant
Yup. My apologies. Clutch basket is intact and fixed to gear behind it. Nothing wrong with the basket or hub from what I can tell.
Squeezing on the clutch lever is not pushing (relieving) the pressure plate. Aka, the slave is not pushing the rod. Having had the clutch cover off and the slave cylinder removed, I could tell that both rods do move freely.
So. In first gear, With clutch lever released, the rear tire barely moves. And there is a slight rumble inside the case, maybe somewhere around secondary drive. I should have taken a video before taking the clutch cover off.
Re: Rolls with clutch lever released
Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2024 6:35 pm
by hillsy v2
Amourmechant wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2024 5:50 pm
So. In first gear, With clutch lever released, the rear tire barely moves. And there is a slight rumble inside the case, maybe somewhere around secondary drive. I should have taken a video before taking the clutch cover off.
Is this with the bike running or not? If it's running and the bike is barely driving then the clutch is stuck "open" - which would either indicate a blocked hydraulic line or you may have put the plates back in wrong. Or there's something amiss with the driveshaft (hence the rumble).
If the bike isn't running then the tire shouldn't move pretty much at all.
Re: Rolls with clutch lever released
Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2024 6:58 pm
by sgtcall
Check the slave to make sure it is clean and has a good seal. I would also rebuild the MC. You will need this.
https://www.amazon.com/Brakecrafters-Cl ... B07WJ664H2
Re: Rolls with clutch lever released
Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2024 8:36 pm
by Herb
sgtcall wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2024 12:09 pm
Herb, I think this is another case of going to the hard fix over the easy fix. We all know the clutch plates last, almost, forever. How many times has someone on here had a clutch issue and went straight for the plates instead of the clutch fluid, MC or slave?
The questions are......
How old was the clutch fluid?
Are there any leaks in the system allowing air in?
then...
Start looking at the clutch itself.
Also, How many miles on the bike? If it's under 60-70k would it even be in the range of new plates?
What were the measurements of the old plates? Were they actually worn?
Maybe so, but, I have never seen a hyd clutch that kept the clutch released. And did it while driving down the highway. The only way that it could be the hyd system that caused this is if there is something preventing the clutch fluid from returning to the master cylinder.
I broke the driven gear off the clutch basket on one of my GT 550s and it did the same thing his is doing. And he said that when he had it apart if felt like the gear was loose.
Re: Rolls with clutch lever released
Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2024 9:33 am
by Amourmechant
I'm ordered a syringe to reverse bleed from the slave. I'll look into rebuilding or replace both cylinders as well.
Motorcycle runs. Goes into gear. Goes into neutral.
In first gear, the tire rolls like it has resistance. There is a slight rumble type sound from what I believe is the secondary drive.
But if something were broken internally, I think I'd get a more "I'm fucked" impression.
Re: Rolls with clutch lever released
Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2024 5:16 pm
by hillsy v2
Amourmechant wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 9:33 am
In first gear, the tire rolls like it has resistance. There is a slight rumble type sound from what I believe is the secondary drive.
Still confused - if you mean the bike is running....with the rear wheel in the air and the clutch in....and the wheel is moving but can be stopped with light resistance - that is normal. The clutch plates have oil between them and will offer a small amount of drive even with the clutch lever in.
The bit about a grinding noise is more worrying.
Re: Rolls with clutch lever released
Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2024 1:10 pm
by Amourmechant
Clutch not in. Lever released. Should stall, kick forward and stall. I imagine tire up and able to turn keeps from stalling. But it does not want to go much faster.
Re: Rolls with clutch lever released
Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2024 4:10 pm
by hillsy v2
Amourmechant wrote: ↑Tue Jan 30, 2024 1:10 pm
Clutch not in. Lever released. Should stall, kick forward and stall. I imagine tire up and able to turn keeps from stalling. But it does not want to go much faster.
OK - I think I get it now.
If it was me I'd unbolt the slave (it's just 2 bolts at 12 and 6 o'clock) and see what happens then. You should have an engaged clutch because you just bypassed the fluid system. Then if you roll the bike in 1st gear (bike not running) and the rear wheel moves you have problems in the drive-train. Then take off the clutch cover and roll the bike again to see what is happening in there. If nothing is moving with the clutch basket but the rear wheel is moving then it's final drive.