Hard starting

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Herb
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Hard starting

Post by Herb »

It's a well-known fact that the 1400's are hard to start in cold weather. We have been having a lot of cold weather, temps down to 9F and my 14 has been giving real problems getting it started. A few days ago I went out to leave and it was 16F. The rear cylinder was firing but it wouldn't run away from the starter. I was getting pissed and was about ready to give up. I was standing there cussing it when I looked up and saw an old can of starting fluid on the shelf. Picked it up and sprayed a little down the tunnel at the front of the gas tank. The bike fired right up.

Since then I have experimented spraying some at the intake of both the front and rear intakes. If I spray both it fires right up, even at 10F. If I only spray the rear it is still really hard to start, but if I only spray the front it fires right up, the rear will skip beats and stutter a little but the bike runs.

Not sure why the front cylinder is so much of a problem.

Anyone with an idea why the front cylinder carb doesn't seem to provide enough fuel for the front cylinder to fire when it is cold out?

Meanwhile, I am carrying the starting fluid with me all the times.
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WintrSol
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Re: Hard starting

Post by WintrSol »

I'd guess the enrichment valve (choke) isn't moving all the way at the front carb, or the idle sync isn't close enough. You're not moving the throttle while cranking before it fires, right?
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Herb
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Re: Hard starting

Post by Herb »

WintrSol wrote:I'd guess the enrichment valve (choke) isn't moving all the way at the front carb, or the idle sync isn't close enough. You're not moving the throttle while cranking before it fires, right?
The carb is working the way it is made to work, just not well enough to get the fuel into the cylinder. Something is wrong with the engineering of the front carb. Or the engineering of the engine has the vacuum too low to pull the fuel into the cylinder.
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navigator
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Re: Hard starting

Post by navigator »

When did this engineering change?
Has your bike always done this?

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WintrSol
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Re: Hard starting

Post by WintrSol »

The 800 and 1400 have the same carb layout (almost the same carbs), and my 800 never had a hard start problem in the cold, unless I put my hand on the throttle. Of course, the 14 is complicated by the decomp system, which may be a player. There is also a lot of 'personality' to these big twins, so you may just have an irritable one.
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Herb
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Re: Hard starting

Post by Herb »

WintrSol wrote:The 800 and 1400 have the same carb layout (almost the same carbs), and my 800 never had a hard start problem in the cold, unless I put my hand on the throttle. Of course, the 14 is complicated by the decomp system, which may be a player. There is also a lot of 'personality' to these big twins, so you may just have an irritable one.
It is common knowledge that the 1400's have always been hard to start at temps of 35F and below. From the time they were new. It appears that the issue is the front carb/intake system not providing the fuel the engine needs or not atomizing it properly.

The decomp system only comes into play for the first half second, then it is not an issue.
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Re: Hard starting

Post by old time rider »

Told this lots of times.Got my 96 1400 six months old one owner 1,300 miles and still under warranty. I ride all winter and in the cold.It would not and never did start at 20 degrees or below if out all night. Suzuki rep tried three times to do it but just gave up after the third time telling me.We know they are poor cold weather starters but most all cruiser riders and most others park them below 45 so see it as not a big thing :fubird: . Most the time it would not start below 30 in my unheated barn. Even tried 10-30 oil .My two Harleys at the time with 20-50 oil all ways out started it! Some told me .Mine will and they have a heated or made to the house place it stays and just because they roll it out in to 20 degree weather think that's the same thing! :bonk: :bonk: Had more call me that the 1400 they had would not start in the 30s more than any thing bad about them. :XmasTree:

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Herb
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Re: Hard starting

Post by Herb »

old time rider wrote:Told this lots of times.Got my 96 1400 six months old one owner 1,300 miles and still under warranty. I ride all winter and in the cold.It would not and never did start at 20 degrees or below if out all night. Suzuki rep tried three times to do it but just gave up after the third time telling me.We know they are poor cold weather starters but most all cruiser riders and most others park them below 45 so see it as not a big thing :fubird: . Most the time it would not start below 30 in my unheated barn. Even tried 10-30 oil .My two Harleys at the time with 20-50 oil all ways out started it! Some told me .Mine will and they have a heated or made to the house place it stays and just because they roll it out in to 20 degree weather think that's the same thing! :bonk: :bonk: Had more call me that the 1400 they had would not start in the 30s more than any thing bad about them. :XmasTree:
I have been riding 1400s since 89 and they have never liked to start in below 40 weather when not in a heated garage. Most of the time mine were either only under a cover or unheated shed but living in San Diego there were few days that it mattered. Where I live now we get temps down to single digits and sometimes in the minus range, it is stored in an unheated garage and it has been a PITA to start.

A couple of weeks ago I was working a table for Toys For Tots at a town 30 miles away. Rode the bike up there and was there from 10 am until 5 pm. The temp was down to about 25 when I went to leave and the bike was a real problem getting it started. Really pissed me off.

When mine won't start it will fire on the rear cylinder but the front won't. It will not quite run away from the starter.

I went out today and was looking at the intake. I wonder if the curved intake for the front cylinder is creating a problem with the fuel atomization.

Last week it was getting down to 9-11F and I was experimenting with it, I would try to start it and could tell the rear was trying to fire but the front would not. The engine would not run away from the starter. Just a short spray in the front of the tunnel under the gas tank, where the air intake for the front carb is and it will fire right up. Seems to be an issue with fuel atomization, more than an issue with not enough fuel because as soon as the engine starts it runs fine. Don't even have to wait for more than long enough to get the gear on to start riding.

A few years ago I enlarged the battery box and put a larger battery in, at San Diego the bike would start fine at around 30 F, about the lowest I ever had to ride in. But with the lower temps here it just doesn't want to start on its own.

While I would like to find a fix for the issue, I guess there isn't a real one, just carry the starting fluid when temps are low. Wish they sold it in smaller cans.
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Re: Hard starting

Post by Lechy »

I get on these thought meanders occasionally and here is the idea I came up with:
The 1400 has a very weak starting system, underrated battery and small motor causing the need for the de-compression to get things moving. In cold weather the cylinder walls are also cold, this being a long stroke motor with a slow spin may be causing the emulsified fuel to condense on the walls of the cylinders thereby leaving a real lean mix for the bang. Using starting aid which will stay gaseous at lower temps overcomes this and you get the bang. Once the machine has made a couple of good bangs the walls have warmed up enough to not cause condensation.

Just my meanderings but worth thinking about.

Try putting the bike to bed with a quilt wrapped around the engine.

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WintrSol
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Re: Hard starting

Post by WintrSol »

I think you both are on the right track. Thinking about it, the downdraft carb, combined with the curved intake tube probably does cause the fuel fog to turn to rain. My brother's '30 Model A Ford had a downdraft carb the fed the intake manifold that curved in a similar way; it could be a beast to start in freezing weather too. Good thing it had electric start, and a fairly massive 6V battery. When it was on the car port, we could run a drop light under the engine on an extension cord, to keep the oil warmer.

The newer models switch the headlamp off when starting, because of the small battery issue - if yours doesn't, a relay can be added to do this for you. A switch would work, too, just don't forget it.
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Re: Hard starting

Post by old time rider »

I have done the light on and wrap the motor. All so put a heated dip stick in it. All this did help a little but when you are on night shift and leave the bike out side you want it to start when you are ready to leave at 8AM even if temps got below 3o in the eight or ten hours you worked. My lots of other Suzuki bikes started good even in single temps. My 1500 Nomad never failed in 82,000 miles with same factory battery and never a charge,tender,or jump. Often in single temps and lots of teens. Lots of owners and a few riders when its really cold is suzuki reasoning on the 1400.Hard core stay away unless you are in a warm winter place. We have a light white Christmas this year here. That's about a one in ten this starting of the south state.Kid and 25 year old grandson coming soon so know my day will be nice. Hope all you all have as good as me. Merry Christmas :XmasTree:

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Herb
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Re: Hard starting

Post by Herb »

WintrSol wrote:I think you both are on the right track. Thinking about it, the downdraft carb, combined with the curved intake tube probably does cause the fuel fog to turn to rain. My brother's '30 Model A Ford had a downdraft carb the fed the intake manifold that curved in a similar way; it could be a beast to start in freezing weather too. Good thing it had electric start, and a fairly massive 6V battery. When it was on the car port, we could run a drop light under the engine on an extension cord, to keep the oil warmer.

The newer models switch the headlamp off when starting, because of the small battery issue - if yours doesn't, a relay can be added to do this for you. A switch would work, too, just don't forget it.
One of the first mods I made on the 87 and on the 99 was to switch the headlight. Really paid off once when one leg of the stator went out. 2 legs were enough to keep it running and the battery charged, as long as the headlight wasn't on. over 100 miles from home and I was able to ride it all the way. Only got stopped once by the cops and when I explained the situation the cop let me go.
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Re: Hard starting

Post by old time rider »

Herb the head light made me think of a ride in to work in the late 80s. Have often took HL plug off if day time and knew they had no charge going.This was night and the all most 50 mile ride and blew high beam. :eek: Got out small flash light and walked around bike.All else seemed ok. Thought about the flash light tied on front but clouds and plenty dark. :ahha: Then it hit me the 82 Seca had turn signals that all so were running lights. Took my screw driver out of the small stock tool pouch and took the two screws out and amber cover off one.So much more light than I would have thought! After taking the other off rode on to work slow. Even went by a cop with his radar out back in a under pass. He never pulled out. AM was fine as Ky. is still a no head light needed in day time. After that started having a extra HD light blub with me on bikes with blubs instead of sealed beams. :XmasTree: :putput:

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Re: Hard starting

Post by Spacecoast »

The newer models switch the headlamp off when starting, because of the small battery issue - if yours doesn't, a relay can be added to do this for you. A switch would work, too, just don't forget it.
Can you explain this more? When I had my 92 Intruder, I added a toggle switch to the back side of the headlamp, cutting into the low beam wire. With my 2005, I was going to do the same mod but didn't due to the wiring mess inside the headlamp and the cramped configuration. I really would like for the headlamp to be off during starting, so some specifics would be helpful. Thanks in advance.

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Re: Hard starting

Post by Herb »

Spacecoast wrote:
The newer models switch the headlamp off when starting, because of the small battery issue - if yours doesn't, a relay can be added to do this for you. A switch would work, too, just don't forget it.
Can you explain this more? When I had my 92 Intruder, I added a toggle switch to the back side of the headlamp, cutting into the low beam wire. With my 2005, I was going to do the same mod but didn't due to the wiring mess inside the headlamp and the cramped configuration. I really would like for the headlamp to be off during starting, so some specifics would be helpful. Thanks in advance.
Actually, I went to the back of the headlight and cut the ground wire, ran it to a toggle switch mounted on the right handlebar. Cuts the ground for both beams. Seems to work, and I have been using this setup since 91.
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Re: Hard starting

Post by WintrSol »

Spacecoast wrote: Can you explain this more? When I had my 92 Intruder, I added a toggle switch to the back side of the headlamp, cutting into the low beam wire. With my 2005, I was going to do the same mod but didn't due to the wiring mess inside the headlamp and the cramped configuration. I really would like for the headlamp to be off during starting, so some specifics would be helpful. Thanks in advance.
The '05 model should already have the switched headlamp; Suzuki added another set of contacts to the starter button that turns it off when the button is pushed. For the USA models, that is.
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Re: Hard starting

Post by Spacecoast »

So maybe mine already cuts out when I activate the starter....I just know it comes on as soon as I turn the key. Just assume the light went dim during starter activity.

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Re: Hard starting

Post by jonnycando »

SInce I added the Dyna 3000 ignition box my Intruder starts fine with a touch of choke in any weather....it may crank a little more in bitter cold but it will fire and run. Bad atomization can be fired with a strong ignition. It does need a goodly warm up, I will say that.

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Re: Hard starting

Post by Leckbass »

I like to start my bike every 2 weeks in the winter.

2 weeks ago my garage was 1 degree, it was a real bitch getting the bike started...it was expected.

This morning, I woke up and it was still 61 in the garage. The bike started up in less than five seconds and I ran it for 10 minutes.

I just find it to be remarkable how different it is.

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Re: Hard starting

Post by Lechy »

Try this:
No choke, no throttle, crank for about 5 seconds, no choke wide open throttle, crank again for about 5 seconds, wait a few seconds then try to start as normal, choke and no throttle.

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