kill switch, starter keeps cranking...

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Herb
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Re: kill switch, starter keeps cranking...

Post by Herb »

Fred wrote:The click that comes out after less that a second is the decomp relay. The Starter solenoid should click at any time you press the starter unless inhibited by side stand, clutch, kill sw, gear etc etc
Uh, not exactly.

The delay in the system is that the starter doesn't start to spin until AFTER the decomp actuates.

When power is applied to the control unit power is applied to the decomp unit, activating the decomp lever. 0.2 seconds later power is applied to the starter relay (solenoid). 0.5 seconds later the decomp solenoid turns off.

The whole action takes 0.7 to complete the cycle.

All of this is controlled by the decomp control unit.
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Re: kill switch, starter keeps cranking...

Post by Fred »

Herb wrote:
Fred wrote:The click that comes out after less that a second is the decomp relay. The Starter solenoid should click at any time you press the starter unless inhibited by side stand, clutch, kill sw, gear etc etc
Uh, not exactly.

The delay in the system is that the starter doesn't start to spin until AFTER the decomp actuates.

When power is applied to the control unit power is applied to the decomp unit, activating the decomp lever. 0.2 seconds later power is applied to the starter relay (solenoid). 0.5 seconds later the decomp solenoid turns off.

The whole action takes 0.7 to complete the cycle.

All of this is controlled by the decomp control unit.
Yes that is correct word perfect from the book. Thanks.

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Re: kill switch, starter keeps cranking...

Post by jonnycando »

The decomp delay flummoxes new Intruder riders the world over. You'd think .7 seconds would be an instant, but it's an eternity if you are expecting the bike to go right to cranking!

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Re: kill switch, starter keeps cranking...

Post by Dominiquer »

Sorry so long...I've been busy working and riding! New starter solved the problem! Hasn't done the cranking thing, though I'm going to take some advice and buy a new starter relay to keep on hand in case it does.

New thing: after riding awhile 30-60 mins, when I shut bike off, it shuts off, then I get a "whump"-sounding backfire. Its not the loud backfire you usually hear. Too rich?

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Re: kill switch, starter keeps cranking...

Post by Lechy »

The solenoid is the starter relay, do you mean the fuel pump relay?

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Re: kill switch, starter keeps cranking...

Post by Fred »

Dominiquer wrote:Sorry so long...I've been busy working and riding! New starter solved the problem! Hasn't done the cranking thing, though I'm going to take some advice and buy a new starter relay to keep on hand in case it does.

New thing: after riding awhile 30-60 mins, when I shut bike off, it shuts off, then I get a "whump"-sounding backfire. Its not the loud backfire you usually hear. Too rich?
The whump as you say is normal-- I get it too. With wasted spark system you can get partial firing and all sorts of pops and bangs. On a back fire it would be from a weak mix but don't worry about a back fire when the engine is shutting down, any way it whizzes the starter backwards due to the sprag one way system.

On your starter solenoid is a single black wire this is intended to sense the engine run backwards such as a back fire which turns the starter and generates some current enough for the ign module to cut ign.

Quite elaborate electrics on a 1400 bit over the top at times.

Decomps,-- I don't use them I have a lever on the left that I pull, wind up the motor like a turbine and let the lever go--- bang wallop sounds great hearing it wind up then fire. If I gave some one they keys they would not be able to start my bike,-- would'nt know how, --- oh wait I just told you.

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Re: kill switch, starter keeps cranking...

Post by old time rider »

My 1600 Road Star does the big whump more than any of my Harley's ever did. Big v-twins seem to do it more than others.

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Re: kill switch, starter keeps cranking...

Post by Herb »

The whump is pretty much normal, for the 1400. When you shut it down the last few revolutions spit some gas into the exhaust, and with the really hot exhaust, from steady high speed running, it ignites in the mufflers.
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Re: kill switch, starter keeps cranking...

Post by Fred »

Herb wrote:The whump is pretty much normal, for the 1400. When you shut it down the last few revolutions spit some gas into the exhaust, and with the really hot exhaust, from steady high speed running, it ignites in the mufflers.
:lmao: whats your idle speed 2000 RPM last few revolutions !!!!.

Spits gas into the exhaust??? you got carbs or buckets. Where do you get this shit from.

Fuel will not ignite without a hot spark try it-- No part of the engine is hot enough to ignite fuel in the exhaust or other wise. Ignition of fuel in the exhaust can only be ignited by ignition from the next ignition but you have just turned that off.

Thats why you pricks go off and buy irridiums for a hotter spark. Go ahead and throw petrol on a hot exhaust --- nothing.

Go down hill and turn off the ign any back firing ? no ??--- now turn on the ign Fucking BOOOM.

Do you just like make this shit up when you smell coffee or fish. FFS

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Re: kill switch, starter keeps cranking...

Post by Herb »

Fred wrote:
Herb wrote:The whump is pretty much normal, for the 1400. When you shut it down the last few revolutions spit some gas into the exhaust, and with the really hot exhaust, from steady high speed running, it ignites in the mufflers.
:lmao: whats your idle speed 2000 RPM last few revolutions !!!!.

Spits gas into the exhaust??? you got carbs or buckets. Where do you get this shit from.

Fuel will not ignite without a hot spark try it-- No part of the engine is hot enough to ignite fuel in the exhaust or other wise. Ignition of fuel in the exhaust can only be ignited by ignition from the next ignition but you have just turned that off.

Thats why you pricks go off and buy irridiums for a hotter spark. Go ahead and throw petrol on a hot exhaust --- nothing.

Go down hill and turn off the ign any back firing ? no ??--- now turn on the ign Fucking BOOOM.

Do you just like make this shit up when you smell coffee or fish. FFS
This explanation of the issue is for the others reading this thread. Since freddie already knows everything, about everything, I know that nothing I say will ever make a difference in his attitude, or lack of knowledge.

I have been riding 1400 intruders since 1989, over 350,000 miles on 2 bikes, and I have had this same issue with both of them. When I bought my 87 new (in 89. It was a leftover 87 model with 9 miles on it from rolling it around the shop), I had it happen a few times. When I took it in for the 500 mile service I ask about it.

According to the dealer it has to do with the transient enrichment system, which is meant to enrich the system when the throttle is quickly shut down at high rpms. Shutting off the engine creates the same vacuum as shutting down the throttle and allows extra fuel into the engine. Remember that it only happens after a quite a long ride, and, I'll bet, very little of it at slow speed. When this extra fuel hits the hot exhaust, it will sometimes ignite, causing a muffled backfire in the muffler. If the system is set a little rich on the idle circuit, or the air filters are getting dirty, it will do it more often.

If you want a little more understanding, download the manual for the 1400, that is pinned at the top of the 1400 forum, and look up the transient system on the 1400 carbs.

Oh, yeah, to cover another of freddies ignorant comments, after the ignition is turned off, the engine turns over a number of times, when the rpms are adjusted to 1000 rpm, which is the recommended idle speed for the 1400.

Oh, yeah, a backfire does NOT turn the engine backwards. :bonk:

freddie, you go ahead and throw gas on a really hot exhaust, I'm not that stupid. There have been a lot of engine fires from fuel leaks on hot engines. I always knew that your mother raised, at least, one fool.

freddie, of course you would not have had it happen. A long ride for you is to the bar 10 blocks away instead of the one 5 blocks away.

freddie, your ignorance is once again showing. Basic know nothing asshole.
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Re: kill switch, starter keeps cranking...

Post by Fred »

Bollocks ---shutting down the engine does not cause vacuum more that you already have, all you are doing is cutting the ign. Bullshit but you have my apologies because I should not have attacked you like that . You are ex army and dont know.. Im sorry . If you don't know then you don't know.

Any one wants to get a small container of petrol , an old beer can will do or the top of a coffee jar. Put some petrol in it, take it into the garden and throw a lit cigarette in it. You can drag on it first and make it real hot it wont make any difference it still wont ignite the fuel.

We did this at technical college for the rooky know all engineers from the army.

The enrichment is by closing just one of the 2 air bleed jets on the idle system it does not have to be ridden or warmed up.

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Re: kill switch, starter keeps cranking...

Post by Herb »

Fred wrote:Bollocks ---shutting down the engine does not cause vacuum more that you already have, all you are doing is cutting the ign. Bullshit but you have my apologies because I should not have attacked you like that . You are ex army and dont know.. Im sorry . If you don't know then you don't know.

Any one wants to get a small container of petrol , an old beer can will do or the top of a coffee jar. Put some petrol in it, take it into the garden and throw a lit cigarette in it. You can drag on it first and make it real hot it wont make any difference it still wont ignite the fuel.

We did this at technical college for the rooky know all engineers from the army.

The enrichment is by closing just one of the 2 air bleed jets on the idle system it does not have to be ridden or warmed up.

Herb is a dreamer
I told all of you that no matter what I said, freddie would not believe it.

When we first switched to ethanol we had a rash of older cars catch on fire because of fuel leaks caused by the ethanol rotting the fuel lines.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/car-drivi ... ires10.htm

"Leaks in the fuel system are the most common cause of vehicle fires, so that's why they take the top spot on our list... "

"Gasoline at a temperature of just 45 degrees Fahrenheit (7.2 degrees Celsius) or above can quickly catch fire from a simple spark. It happens all the time in a running car, after all, but it's contained by the engine. And gasoline that reaches 495 degrees Fahrenheit (257.2 degrees Celsius) will ignite by itself. It's easy to see how fuel dripping onto hot metal and plastic parts can cause a fast-spreading fire. "

As for how hot the exhaust system is, it depends on many factors, but since it gets hot enough, on the outside of the double wall header pipe to blue the chrome, it is more than likely to be hot enough inside the pipe to explode the unburnt fuel, and that is not even counting the fact that there WILL be carbon deposits inside the pipe that will have an after glow.

I have ran many vehicles with a vacuum gauge on on them, when the engine is shut off, the gauge will jump up, even without that there will be some fuel sucked from the carbs, after shutting off the engine It will be, at least, the same amount as the engine needs to idle, for each revolution of the engine. When an engine is idling at 1000 rpm, depending on the compression, it will probably be around 8-10+ turns before it stops.

I have found that by turning the idle down the issue with the "whump" in the muffler will be reduced to a once in a great while thing, but that means that the bike will sometimes die when coming to a stop.

Edit to add: catalytic converters don't even start to work until the exhaust temp is over 350 F, minimum. Some places say the cats don't start to work, "fire off", until 400-600 F. Typical EGT for a gas engine, under normal load will be in the 600-800 F range.
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Re: kill switch, starter keeps cranking...

Post by lonerider »

I don't know much about what you guys are talking about, but one time I was trying to start a car by removing the air cleaner and pouring gas down the carb. After cranking it over a couple of times it back-fired through the carb and the top of the engine caught fire. After burning off the gas the flames died out. I don't know how this applies to the subject at hand, but thought I'd mention it. :smile:

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Re: kill switch, starter keeps cranking...

Post by Fred »

lonerider wrote:I don't know much about what you guys are talking about, but one time I was trying to start a car by removing the air cleaner and pouring gas down the carb. After cranking it over a couple of times it back-fired through the carb and the top of the engine caught fire. After burning off the gas the flames died out. I don't know how this applies to the subject at hand, but thought I'd mention it. :smile:
It does'nt realy lonerider because the back fire was the ign source.

But yes a back fire will cause the ign source, heat is not enough --if it was we would not need spark plugs.

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Re: kill switch, starter keeps cranking...

Post by Herb »

lonerider wrote:I don't know much about what you guys are talking about, but one time I was trying to start a car by removing the air cleaner and pouring gas down the carb. After cranking it over a couple of times it back-fired through the carb and the top of the engine caught fire. After burning off the gas the flames died out. I don't know how this applies to the subject at hand, but thought I'd mention it. :smile:
I know what that is...

My first car was given to me by my grandfather when I was 13, I think it was a punishment for something I did, rather than a favor. It was a 52 Plymouth with a flat head six. Had a bad throw in the crankshaft and every so often the rod would start knocking, pull the pan, put in a new bearing and it was good to go, for a few hundred miles. Where I lived there was all kinds of dirt roads I could drive on by only sneaking across the county roads a couple of times.

One day I was trying to start it and a friend was craning it over, I looked down the carb to see if it had gas and when I pumped the throttle it backfired in my face. Burned my eyebrows and lashes off, burned my face like a bad sunburn. Learned to be REAL careful around carbs when the engine is cranking.

Had a 56 chevy with the 265 and it had an oil bath air filter. The points were out of adjustment and it backfired through the carb, set the oil in the filter on fire. burnt up the filter and bubbled the paint on the hood in a circle about 12 inches across, before I could get it out. Ruined a good levi jacket putting it out. Learned to keep engines tuned correctly.

Learned a lot of lessons the hard way, either through pain or cost, before I started learning from other people's mistakes.

BTW, firing through the carb is a real backfire, a boom in the exhaust is fuel exploding in the exhaust system. Result quite often is a muffler with a split seam or blown off of the pipe.
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Re: kill switch, starter keeps cranking...

Post by Herb »

Fred wrote:
lonerider wrote:I don't know much about what you guys are talking about, but one time I was trying to start a car by removing the air cleaner and pouring gas down the carb. After cranking it over a couple of times it back-fired through the carb and the top of the engine caught fire. After burning off the gas the flames died out. I don't know how this applies to the subject at hand, but thought I'd mention it. :smile:
It does'nt realy lonerider because the back fire was the ign source.

But yes a back fire will cause the ign source, heat is not enough --if it was we would not need spark plugs.
Never had a poorly tuned gas engine "diesel" on you?

Again, fuel leaks on hot engines will cause a fire.
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Re: kill switch, starter keeps cranking...

Post by Fred »

Herb wrote:
Fred wrote:
lonerider wrote:I don't know much about what you guys are talking about, but one time I was trying to start a car by removing the air cleaner and pouring gas down the carb. After cranking it over a couple of times it back-fired through the carb and the top of the engine caught fire. After burning off the gas the flames died out. I don't know how this applies to the subject at hand, but thought I'd mention it. :smile:
It does'nt realy lonerider because the back fire was the ign source.

But yes a back fire will cause the ign source, heat is not enough --if it was we would not need spark plugs.
Never had a poorly tuned gas engine "diesel" on you?

Again, fuel leaks on hot engines will cause a fire.
Well get off your fat old ass and try it because I know for sure you never have as it don't. You would think it does but it don't.

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Re: kill switch, starter keeps cranking...

Post by Herb »

Fred wrote:
Herb wrote:
Fred wrote:
lonerider wrote:I don't know much about what you guys are talking about, but one time I was trying to start a car by removing the air cleaner and pouring gas down the carb. After cranking it over a couple of times it back-fired through the carb and the top of the engine caught fire. After burning off the gas the flames died out. I don't know how this applies to the subject at hand, but thought I'd mention it. :smile:
It does'nt realy lonerider because the back fire was the ign source.

But yes a back fire will cause the ign source, heat is not enough --if it was we would not need spark plugs.
Never had a poorly tuned gas engine "diesel" on you?

Again, fuel leaks on hot engines will cause a fire.
Well get off your fat old ass and try it because I know for sure you never have as it don't. You would think it does but it don't.
I learn from others mistakes, fools like you have to learn the hard way.

Right after CA mandated the ethanol fuel there was never more than 3 days that went by without a car fire on the freeway. The vast majority of them was leaking fuel systems, on hot engine components. There is NO spark on the outside of an engine doing 65 on the freeway, but the cars caught fire anyway. This went on for about 2 years. Even now we hear of a car fire, started by fuel leaking on a hot engine. My father was fueling a chainsaw and spilled gas on the muffler, and it caught fire. Saw an old ford pickup burn up because the grease and oil on the back of the engine caught fire on a hard pull.

You can believe what you want, but you are wrong.
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Re: kill switch, starter keeps cranking...

Post by Spacecoast »

New thing: after riding awhile 30-60 mins, when I shut bike off, it shuts off, then I get a "whump"-sounding backfire. Its not the loud backfire you usually hear. Too rich?
My bike does this every time I shut it down, as long as it's fully hot. My assumption is that there is some sort of "ignition" going on inside the exhaust system with unburned residual gas, but it is very minor. When I was doing some system checking after purchasing my bike, I created an unintended back-fire. Traveling about 30 mph, I took the heel of my boot and pushed slightly down the kick-stand, just enough to trip the safety switch. I wanted to know if that would cut the ignition (and it did) and upon letting it back up a second later I got a rather loud back-fire since I was still holding the throttle a bit open. Overall, not recommended. My point is that the heat of the exhaust wasn't enough to ignite the raw gas, but once engine ignition was restored, the exhaust flame caused the back-fire. I think the "whump" is more associated with a very mild and lean fuel vapor dump during shut-down, and might be hitting a hot catalytic material, which is designed to burn minor unspent gas. Thus both Herb and Fred and correct. Its a yes and no answer.

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Re: kill switch, starter keeps cranking...

Post by Fred »

Spacecoast wrote:
New thing: after riding awhile 30-60 mins, when I shut bike off, it shuts off, then I get a "whump"-sounding backfire. Its not the loud backfire you usually hear. Too rich?
My bike does this every time I shut it down, as long as it's fully hot. My assumption is that there is some sort of "ignition" going on inside the exhaust system with unburned residual gas, but it is very minor. When I was doing some system checking after purchasing my bike, I created an unintended back-fire. Traveling about 30 mph, I took the heel of my boot and pushed slightly down the kick-stand, just enough to trip the safety switch. I wanted to know if that would cut the ignition (and it did) and upon letting it back up a second later I got a rather loud back-fire since I was still holding the throttle a bit open. Overall, not recommended. My point is that the heat of the exhaust wasn't enough to ignite the raw gas, but once engine ignition was restored, the exhaust flame caused the back-fire. I think the "whump" is more associated with a very mild and lean fuel vapor dump during shut-down, and might be hitting a hot catalytic material, which is designed to burn minor unspent gas. Thus both Herb and Fred and correct. Its a yes and no answer.
There is a fire in your engine, thats how it runs. the explosion of the fuel more correctly termed 'burn' is constant throughout the stroke not just a quick bang. This burn can be so slow on a weak mix that it is still burning at the intake stroke even surviving the exhaust stroke causing to pop back into the carb which itself denotes a weak mix.
Taking this into consideration the flame can survive a revolution to ignite the next intake if it were to be turned off at a certain time.

Hence it does not do it every time.

If heat alone was enough the engine would not turn off and you would have a diesel type engine CI. On old 'bath tub' type combustion chamber this indeed can happen called 'running on' the engine clunks and clanks and keeps going by hot spots of cast iron engines so hot that it will exceed the flash point required The best way to stop that is put your foot on the gas to allow cold air fuel mix to enter and cool it, but you wont get that high temps on the 'outside' or inside of a smooth alluminium head and an exhaust pipe of 1.5mm thickness.

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