Not the Starter Solenoid this time?

[Acton67]

So the 98 vs1400 I picked up was doing the same thing the 97 was doing when I got that bike and tried to start it. The previous owner mentioned they replaced the regulator/rectifier but that the bike still had charging issues and needed a stator. So I drained the case and threw a new stator in, then replacaced the clutch plates and threw new springs in.

Got around to putting new oil & oil filter in. Figured that the starting issue was another bad starter solenoid so I switched it out with a new one. This didn't solve the issue though. It still doesn't start, but turns over fine when I jump the starter solenoid (at least I know the motor isnt seized on this one either ).

When I picked up the bike I found the connector between the main harness and the key switch was melted. Makes me think I have a possible short or bad connection somewhere else in the harness?



The bike didn't come with keys anyway so I picked up a new key switch and hard wired it into the bike. When I turn the key switch on the blinkers and everything else works.

https://youtube.com/shorts/MHcBiCUpnN8?feature=share

Checked all the fuses in the fuse box, all of them were good. The starting motor is responding when I hit the starter switch, but it acts like it's not getting enough power(?) similarly to when I had a bad solenoid on the other bike.

Where should I start looking? Seems like every time I have an electrical issue it's some sort of grounding issue. Obviously the starter switch has continuity or nothing would happen, right?

Edit: Already made some progress. I was looking at this image and realized that I never bypassed the clutch safety switch (I did it on my 800 and it was the first thing I did on the '97 1400).



So I realized that there must be a short somewhere (in the handlebar wires maybe?) for the starter solenoid to turn over at all when I hit the start switch. This time I pulled the clutch and hit the start switch and the starter motor started normally. . .then I stopped pressing the start switch and the starter motor kept going. I let the clutch switch go as well but the starter motor kept going. I turned the key switch to off and pulled it and it still didn't turn off. I had easy access to the battery so I quickly disconnected it. Where's the most likely location of the short? Guess I'm going to be pulling both switches tomorrow. Anywhere else I should be checking for a short?

[Herb]

Possible the new solenoid is sticking or you are getting power to it when you shouldn't.

pull the wire to the starter off the solenoid, go to the yellow black wire on the solenoid and check for power on it when you try to start it, the power should come on when the start button is pushed and go off when released.

if it does then check the output power to the starter. It should also come and go when the start button is pushed.

If it doesn't then you are going to have a lot of fun finding out where the voltage is coming from.

It is possible that the solenoid is stuck.

I have seen new electrical parts bad from the maker.

[Acton67]

Possible the new solenoid is sticking or you are getting power to it when you shouldn't.

pull the wire to the starter off the solenoid, go to the yellow black wire on the solenoid and check for power on it when you try to start it, the power should come on when the start button is pushed and go off when released.

if it does then check the output power to the starter. It should also come and go when the start button is pushed.

If it doesn't then you are going to have a lot of fun finding out where the voltage is coming from.

It is possible that the solenoid is stuck.

I have seen new electrical parts bad from the maker.

1. Before power was going to the starter solenoid when I pressed the start switch, but the voltage was to low to fully open it.

2. Then I realized I forgot about the clutch safety switch, pulled the clutch in, turned the kill switch to start and hit the start button.

3. The starter started normally buy wouldn't stop after I stopped pressing the start button.

4. Then I let the clutch handle go but the starter motor kept running.

5. Then I turned the key switch off but the starter motor kept running.

6. Finally I disconnected the battery.

If it was stuck why wouldn't it fully start before I pulled in the clutch switch (but made the clicking noise in the video when it shouldn't have done anything because I forgot I hadn't bypassed the clutch safety switch), then started after I pulled in the clutch but wouldn't stop even after I let the clutch go, or pulled the key? What (permanent) change could pulling the clutch lever in have caused? Before turning the ignition key switch on turned on the bike normally, now the starter solenoid is getting constant power. If I disconnect the yellow/black wire from the solenoid (the hot wire?), I should be able to tell if it's because the solenoid is stuck open or not right, because the starter motor would continue to run with that wire removed?

[Herb]

If you pull the Y/W wire while it is cranking it SHOULD stop the starter motor from turning. If it does then you know the issue is in the start signal wiring.

Why it even tried to crank until the clutch was pulled in tells us that there is a stray voltage in there.

Exactly why the system stayed on is hard to understand except that once the solenoid is engaged it takes less power to keep it engaged than to move it originally.

it is a matter of starting on one end of the system and tracing wires until you find the issue. Time consuming and very frustrating to trace out the issue.

Strange electrical Gremlins can be very hard to find and will make you want to cut the fuel line and throw a match on the gas.... Been there.

[Acton67]

Exactly why the system stayed on is hard to understand except that once the solenoid is engaged it takes less power to keep it engaged than to move it originally.

it is a matter of starting on one end of the system and tracing wires until you find the issue. Time consuming and very frustrating to trace out the issue.

I think your right about the solenoid just needing less power to stay om after it's turned on, makes sense.

I had to drop the battery box to get the mufflers off, I didnt disconnect the wires first because I thought Id have enough slack. Maybe when I first got the bike the solenoid WAS bad? Then when I dropped the battery I damaged this smaller red wire going to the main harness? If my key switch was off and my solenoid was still getting power, the short should be somewhere before the key switch right?

[Herb]

Looking at the wiring diagram, if the clutch switch was not fully disengaging you migh get some power through it until you pulled in the clutch handle and might have done damage to the solenoid because it wasn't enough power to fully engage. If the solenoid stuck turning off the key wouldn't help because the power from the battery to the solenoid comes straight off the battery.

[Acton67]

Looking at the wiring diagram, if the clutch switch was not fully disengaging you migh get some power through it until you pulled in the clutch handle and might have done damage to the solenoid because it wasn't enough power to fully engage. If the solenoid stuck turning off the key wouldn't help because the power from the battery to the solenoid comes straight off the battery.

Basically I already confirmed that the Starter solenoid is stuck open now because I turned off the key and the solenoid was still delivering power to the starter right? I mean it's clear that there's a short somewhere, but is there any other way the solenoid could still get power with the key turned off other then being stuck open?

Only thing I can think of that could do that is a short in the wire coming off the battery to the fuse box, or the red/white wire coming off the fuse box to the ignition key switch right? I mean the original connector going from the main harness to the ignition key switch was melted.

If this is the case though then I should have heard the clicking sound in the solenoid when I turned the bike on. I don't understand how I heard any sound at all when I originally hit the start switch but didnt have the clutch pulled in.

[Herb]

If you didn't hear the decomp solenoid release the compression the only way that could happen is if there was a hot wire shorting out after the decomp controller. The clutch switch is the last safety switch before the decomp controller.

Try jumping the clutch switch out of the system and see what happens.

[Acton67]

If you didn't hear the decomp solenoid release the compression the only way that could happen is if there was a hot wire shorting out after the decomp controller. The clutch switch is the last safety switch before the decomp controller.

Try jumping the clutch switch out of the system and see what happens.

Alright, I'll jump the clutch switch at the main harness tomorrow since the short is probably in the handlebars or near the risers somewhere if that's what it is.

Sucks all that stuffs in the headlight in the 1400. It's under the tank on the 800, much easier to get to on that bike.

[Herb]

Just do a temp jumper at the switch, if you want to jumper the thing permanantly later it is easy enough to do.

Before doing anything else, check for continuity across the solenoid terminals for the main power. With NO power on the bike it should be an open. If not the solenoid will have to be replaced before any other T-shooting is done.

[Acton67]

Just do a temp jumper at the switch, if you want to jumper the thing permanantly later it is easy enough to do.

Before doing anything else, check for continuity across the solenoid terminals for the main power. With NO power on the bike it should be an open. If not the solenoid will have to be replaced before any other T-shooting is done.

Alright. Makes sense, if it's closed that means the starter solenoid is stuck on.

Even if there is a short at the clutch switch, shouldn't turning off the ignition key switch have cut power to the circuit before the clutch switch? Maybe at that point the starter solenoid was already stuck open? Guess I'll have to see tomorrow.

If the solenoid checks out Ill disconnect the wire going to the starter from the solenoid. I should be able to check for voltage at that terminal to see if it's delivering power to the starter, if I get voltage only when I hit the start switch I'll know I fixed the problem then right? I could also check for continuity between both terminals when I hit the switch? Just don't want to have the starter motor running for an extended period of time.

[Herb]

Sounds like a good plan to me.

[Acton67]

Sounds like a good plan to me.

Went out today, the new solenoid is stuck open like you guessed. The old one is not but it's obvious there's a short somewhere so I'm pulling both handlebar switches to check for a short.

Somehow a small(?) amount of voltage was getting around the clutch switch before. Without opening the clutch switch power was going through the circuit when I hit the start button. That means power is going past the clutch switch when it shouldn't be right? Or there's a short somewhere in the yellow/green clutch wire in the main harness? I'll bypass the clutch switch at the main harness, then check for continuity between the yellow black wire and main power wire that connects to the positive terminal on the battery. I should only have continuity between those two points when the kill switch is set to run, the start switch is pressed and my clutch switch is bypassed correct?

[Herb]

My first thought is the clutch switch is bad. These have a plastic tab that acuates the switch and are horrible about breaking off. It can leave the switch partly engaged which would allow the small amount of power through.

Your trouble shooting plan sounds reasonable though.

Just a little side note, when talking about a switchs if it has no power going through it, it is considered open, if power goes through it it is considered closed.

[Acton67]

My first thought is the clutch switch is bad. These have a plastic tab that acuates the switch and are horrible about breaking off. It can leave the switch partly engaged which would allow the small amount of power through.

Your trouble shooting plan sounds reasonable though.

Just a little side note, when talking about a switchs if it has no power going through it, it is considered open, if power goes through it it is considered closed.

You were correct. Bypassed the clutch switch at the main harness and it fixed the issue. The right blinker switch is busted too. Gonna have to pull the whole thing. Thanks for the help!

[Herb]

Glad you found the problem. Thanks for letting us know what you found.

Both of my 1400's had issues with the clutch switch before they were very old.