Cutting S83 Handlebar clamp

[hillsy]

All that shit is good and well if you start with a working system - but this guy has a system that doesn't work.

We don't know the history of the caliper or whether its been rebuilt at this point - if it hasn't then the next step is to pop out the pistons and ensure it's clean and working properly. These calipers get corrosion under the seals which push the seals out and onto the piston. That needs to be checked and corrision removed.

In a set up where you have solid mount calipers on a solid mount disc its important the pistons move freely.

[Designer]

From what he says here,...his "system" is still needing diagnosis to track down what are the fault(s) causing his angst.

What about a sticky piston? If the piston seal bites on the piston then when the lever is released the seal will pull the piston back too far. So the next lever action has a long travel before it firm's up for to the piston needing to travel a long way.

And by doing what I suggested leaves the Hydraulic Fluid in the System so he can check to see if a stuck Piston was a contributing factor or not ( a legitimate concern he mentions above)....and....to check and see if all Pistons Are Moving The Same. If this is doable depends on the Degree Of Dirt Infiltration that has occurred.. (which you and I do not know).....as I mentioned here in my suggested Cleaning Method ;

...... It would depend on how much Dirt/Brake Dust may have been there,...and.. how far into the Fluid Chamber of the Caliper... it may/may not.... have happened.
I have had Brake Dust on the Pistons get into the Seal area,..but not beyond....Cleaned it off by extending the Pistons out well,...cycled them in-and-out a few times ( coating them with Brake Fluid) and reset them to the proper place for the application ,..and all worked well.

Doing what you suggested will certainly clean things up..,..but..... it would involve alot more "mucking around" ( in your words). Along with the Removing all the Pistons, Cleaning and Reassembly of the Caliper,...it would involve him Draining, Cleaning up, Refilling and Bleeding the System to perform that check in sleuthing the possible Piston sticking as a cause.

Also a check would be to see if the current Seals/Pistons combination has all the Pistons Moving Equally or not. Important to see that to know if he needs new Piston Seals, ....or not..... (to save him another expense).

[hillsy]

So how does he "check to see if the current Seals/Pistons combination has all the Pistons Moving Equally or not" ??

Watching the pistons as he squeezes the lever?

I can guarantee you they will NEVER all come out at the same time like that - even on a brand new caliper.

I assume he's waiting for a new disc and MC kit to be shipped - he would be best served in the meantime to pull the caliper apart and making sure it's right.

[Designer]

So how does he "check to see if the current Seals/Pistons combination has all the Pistons Moving Equally or not" ?? Watching the pistons as he squeezes the lever?

It's surprising that you....who claims to be a professional mechanic ... even have to ASK this question...when it was clear that my suggested Cleaning Method left the fluid in the system.

I can guarantee you they will NEVER all come out at the same time like that - even on a brand new caliper.

hillsy,...I didn't suggest he take a micrometer and measure exactitude how much each moved.,..so settle down.
Within a certain amount, it will be detectable if they are operating within a correct spec,...not have a Stucky Piston....as he posted he suspects;

What about a sticky piston? If the piston seal bites on the piston then when the lever is released the seal will pull the piston back too far. So the next lever action has a long travel before it firm's up for to the piston needing to travel a long way.

I assume he's waiting for a new disc and MC kit to be shipped - he would be best served in the meantime to pull the caliper apart and making sure it's right.

What ever happened to,...'we test, not guess"...credo of professional mechanics? You just march past this and suggest MUCH more work,...without even TESTING to see if it nedded,...AT ALL.

You are getting yourself all worked up here....and it does not help him out.

[hillsy]

I'm sorry - but you're not real clued up with brake calipers are you?

"Test not guess" is EXACTLY what you're doing when you pop out the pistons and clean the ENTIRE caliper. Not trying to jam a brush behind the pistons whilst they're in the caliper and hoping you got all the dirt that you cant even see.

Seriously - I don't want to argue with you but what you're telling the guy is crap advice.

Don't try and take short cuts with brakes.

[Designer]

I'm sorry - but you're not real clued up with brake calipers are you?
"Test not guess" is EXACTLY what you're doing when you pop out the pistons and clean the ENTIRE caliper. Not trying to jam a brush behind the pistons whilst they're in the caliper and hoping you got all the dirt that you cant even see.

It's hard to imagine you being more mistaken.

Cleaning the Caliper while leaving it together and Testing the Movement Action of the Pistons/Seals IS TESTING....and also,... not a short-cut, but a way to to see if there is a Sticking Piston....as Pvt-nemisis suspects. A TEST that will add information towards finding the Actual Source(s) of the problem(s) he is having.

Disassembly, Cleaning and Reassembly of the Caliper ( as you suggest) is a Remedy...NOT Testing hillsy.. A Remedy that someone would use IF there is a need to do so, (like a sticking Piston). And you would know if this Remedy is necessary or not,... IF you TESTED FIRST (as I recommended ) .
If one uses your "idea" of what Testing is, then,.. Taking Off a Carburetor,..Taking It Apart,..Cleaning It,..Reassembling it,..and Reinstalling it,....
is TESTING!

We won't go into your false insult of "Crap Advice". You have dragged this Thread down twice already with you needless bickering,
Best you stop doing that now.



Now,...moving past your retro-grade actions,..... Pvt-nemisis,...Have you rebuilt the Master Cylinder yet?

[Pvt_Nemesis]

Not all Tokico calipers have a smaller leading piston;

Though not easy, it is possible top clean behind the extended piston. Small diameter Brushes can get in that narrowed space, I have done so myself. Thus saving all the time and hassle/effort in removal and refitting.

This caliper has all pistons the same size (Winters specify zx6r 00-02}.i was told by the seller that he had popped the pistons and cleaned to check the seals but that doesn't ring true now!

I fitted a piece of wood between the pistons of "max extension" width then pumped them out, then removed the wood. CRC Brakekleen and a toothbrush and careful work have it looking good. I'm reluctant to pop the pistons until a caliper seal kit arrives but i now have working brakes! Master cylinder seals haven't arrived yet either so not opened the MC.

Returning to the handlebars... I'm going to check all the dimensions but for the price i could put up with the bend to the risers;
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Motorcycle-1-T ... 632-2357-0

[Designer]

This caliper has all pistons the same size (Winters specify zx6r 00-02}.

Thank you,...Good to know. You can rest assured that you do not have.... an issue with bore size of MC not being big enough for the new caliper ......because we have this;

Not all Tokico calipers have a smaller leading piston;

There are at least two versions of this Tokico caliper, one has all six pistons the same diameter (mine) and the other has four the same and two small ones.

I was told by the seller that he had popped the pistons and cleaned to check the seals but that doesn't ring true now!

I fitted a piece of wood between the pistons of "max extension" width then pumped them out, then removed the wood. CRC Brakekleen and a toothbrush and careful work have it looking good. I'm reluctant to pop the pistons until a caliper seal kit arrives but I now have working brakes!

Ah!,...so Your Cleaning efforts solved the possible stuck piston(s) concerns. All done with leaving the Master Cylinder/Hydraulic System in tact. Good Job!

Master cylinder seals haven't arrived yet either so not opened the MC.

So,...now that you did the Piston-Extension-Clean-The-Pistons and have "working brakes"....do you still have a Lever Fade you reported here?;

......- the master cylinder no longer fully holds pressure it feels like and "fades" back to the grip.

Returning to the handlebars... I'm going to check all the dimensions but for the price I could put up with the bend to the risers;
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Motorcycle-1-T ... 632-2357-0

Those look pretty good! I hope the chrome holds up.

[hillsy]

Not all Tokico calipers have a smaller leading piston;

Though not easy, it is possible top clean behind the extended piston. Small diameter Brushes can get in that narrowed space, I have done so myself. Thus saving all the time and hassle/effort in removal and refitting.

This caliper has all pistons the same size (Winters specify zx6r 00-02}.i was told by the seller that he had popped the pistons and cleaned to check the seals but that doesn't ring true now!

I fitted a piece of wood between the pistons of "max extension" width then pumped them out, then removed the wood. CRC Brakekleen and a toothbrush and careful work have it looking good. I'm reluctant to pop the pistons until a caliper seal kit arrives but i now have working brakes! Master cylinder seals haven't arrived yet either so not opened the MC.

Returning to the handlebars... I'm going to check all the dimensions but for the price i could put up with the bend to the risers;
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Motorcycle-1-T ... 632-2357-0

So the problem ended up being air in the system?

Another way to clean the pistons better is to split the caliper in half (remove the 4 allen bolts) then you will have a better view of the back of the pistons you cant see. Still not as thorough as popping then out though.

What are you doing about your warped disc?

[Herb]

Every few months I pull the brake pads and pump the pistons almost all the way out, spray them down with PB Blaster, force them back in, a few times, clean the disk with alcohol, and put the pads back in. My brakes work better and the pads last longer.

crud and corrosion build up on the sides of the piston and cylinder, outside of the seal, and keep it from pushing out and retracting like it is supposed to.

[Designer]

Every few months I pull the brake pads and pump the pistons almost all the way out, spray them down with PB Blaster, force them back in, a few times, clean the disk with alcohol, and put the pads back in. My brakes work better and the pads last longer.
crud and corrosion build up on the sides of the piston and cylinder, outside of the seal, and keep it from pushing out and retracting like it is supposed to.

I'd not thought of doing this as a maintenance procedure, only if one suspects a Sticky Piston.

Doing as you do sure beats,...mucking around.... with all the work involved if you were to ... pop the pistons out with compressed air and clean them "properly".......and split the caliper in half (remove the 4 allen bolts).

I will now check both my 6 piston calipers more often as you do.

[hillsy]

I'd not thought of doing this as a maintenance procedure, only if one suspects a Sticky Piston.

That kinda figures from your talk that you haven't done this.

Good luck getting in behind all the pistons on a six spotter - fair bit different from a two spotter.

[Designer]

You're staying up awfully late. Gee,....I wonder why?

I'd not thought of doing this as a maintenance procedure, only if one suspects a Sticky Piston.

That kinda figures from your talk that you haven't done this. Good luck getting in behind all the pistons on a six spotter - fair bit different from a two spotter.

Haven't needed to as Maintenance Procedure . All works very well.

When I replace my Pads, I do perform the Cleaning outlined that Herb knows works,...and Pvt-nemeis, I and everyone else sees works well,...
and,... is no big deal to do.

It is, to be sure, A TON less,....mucking around....than what your proposal of Draining, Cleaning up, Refilling and Bleeding the System just to Remove the Caliper, then all the Pistons, Cleaning them and Reassembly the Caliper and Reinstalling it.


Seriously - I don't want to argue with you...after all, we all Know what you're telling the guy is pretty much crap advice. (your words, not mine)

[navigator]

Every few months I pull the brake pads and pump the pistons almost all the way out, spray them down with PB Blaster, force them back in, a few times, clean the disk with alcohol, and put the pads back in. My brakes work better and the pads last longer.

crud and corrosion build up on the sides of the piston and cylinder, outside of the seal, and keep it from pushing out and retracting like it is supposed to.

Every few months??
Seems like overkill.

[Designer]

Every few months I pull the brake pads and pump the pistons almost all the way out, spray them down with PB Blaster, force them back in, a few times, clean the disk with alcohol, and put the pads back in. My brakes work better and the pads last longer.
crud and corrosion build up on the sides of the piston and cylinder, outside of the seal, and keep it from pushing out and retracting like it is supposed to.

Every few months?? Seems like overkill.

Maybe it's the "Desert Like Environment" of Nevada he lives in?

[hillsy]

Always a good idea to clean the pistons if you can. But when you buy a 2nd hand caliper and you cant get it to work? Smart money is on popping out the pistons and making sure its good.

You'll never know for sure unless you do. You want to start with from a level playing field with all possibilities eliminated. And our mate has discovered this.

Bike calipers aren't car calipers.

[Herb]

Every few months I pull the brake pads and pump the pistons almost all the way out, spray them down with PB Blaster, force them back in, a few times, clean the disk with alcohol, and put the pads back in. My brakes work better and the pads last longer.
crud and corrosion build up on the sides of the piston and cylinder, outside of the seal, and keep it from pushing out and retracting like it is supposed to.

Every few months?? Seems like overkill.

Maybe it's the "Desert Like Environment" of Nevada he lives in?

I started doing it a long time ago. I was doing it only when I changed the pads but I mentioned to a friend that I was lucky to get 5-7,000 miles out of a set of pads. He said to clean the pistons on the outside because they were probably failing to retract properly. I started doing it about every 4 months and my pad wear went up to 12-15,000 miles in the heavy traffic on the San Diego freeways... A lot of brake usage in rush hour traffic...

Since I moved up here to Northern NV I don't ride as much so I have cut it back to every 6 months.

[Designer]

Always a good idea to clean the pistons if you can. But when you buy a 2nd hand caliper and you cant get it to work? Smart money is on popping out the pistons and making sure its good.

Apparently you aren't....... real clued up....this thread.

Pvt-nemesis says that he fixed his problem by performing the Cleaning Method I had suggested to him. The very one that Herb has used for YEARS now. So best that you Stuff It with your endless touting of the ....mucking around....that I've pointed out that that goes into.... popping out the Pistons .

....It is, to be sure, A TON less,....mucking around....than what your proposal of Draining, Cleaning up, Refilling and Bleeding the System just to Remove the Caliper, then all the Pistons, Cleaning them and Reassembly the Caliper and Reinstalling it.

And to help you,...get clued up,....your "piston popping" suggestion above has been PROVEN to not be a "testing"..as you said......at all;

I'm sorry - but you're not real clued up with brake calipers are you?
"Test not guess" is EXACTLY what you're doing when you pop out the pistons and clean the ENTIRE caliper. Not trying to jam a brush behind the pistons whilst they're in the caliper and hoping you got all the dirt that you cant even see.

It's hard to imagine you being more mistaken.

Cleaning the Caliper while leaving it together and Testing the Movement Action of the Pistons/Seals IS TESTING....and also,... not a short-cut, but a way to to see if there is a Sticking Piston....as Pvt-nemisis suspects. A TEST that will add information towards finding the Actual Source(s) of the problem(s) he is having.

Disassembly, Cleaning and Reassembly of the Caliper ( as you suggest) is a Remedy...NOT Testing hillsy.. A Remedy that someone would use IF there is a need to do so, (like a sticking Piston). And you would know if this Remedy is necessary or not,... IF you TESTED FIRST (as I recommended ) .
If one uses your "idea" of what Testing is, then,.. Taking Off a Carburetor,..Taking It Apart,..Cleaning It,..Reassembling it,..and Reinstalling it,....
is TESTING!

We won't go into your false insult of "Crap Advice". You have dragged this Thread down twice already with you needless bickering,
Best you stop doing that now.

Best you Catch Up and Educate yourself on what's going on herein.

[hillsy]

This whole brake saga could have been avoided if he'd popped out the pistons and cleaned the caliper before he put it on. You don't need new seals to do this.

The caliper might still be full of sludge for all we know.

Never trust what a previous owner says about stuff - especially brake stuff as once the brake fluid is exposed to the atmosphere it will destroy things pretty quick.

[Designer]

This whole brake saga could have been avoided if he'd popped out the pistons and cleaned the caliper before he put it on. You don't need new seals to do this.

No,
The.... whole brake saga.....was you endlessly trying to discredit/attack what I said,...all while trying to push your.....Caliper off, all Pistons out, Cleaning, Reassembly, Reinstall, Bleeding .... mucking around,...which you erroneously tried to claim was..."testing" ....but was proved NOT to be testing, ......but a REMEDY.

Seems you fail to see, the,...saga,......you created WAS FIXED by him doing the Caliper-on, Cleaning Method that I had outlined. ...and is now perpetuated by your Stubborn Refusal to accept these Blatant FACTS.

Just quit hillsy.........really,..........do that.

You and your... "I am always right because I am a mechanic".... attitude has dragged down YET ANOTHER Good Thread.