starter switch AND starter solenoid - help please

Lechy
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Re: starter switch AND starter solenoid - help please

Post by Lechy »

Oops, I missed that, my apologies.

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DrAlloway
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Re: starter switch AND starter solenoid - help please

Post by DrAlloway »

Today's next step::

So the solenoid is Good.
Battery also.
I jumped the Clutch Safety Switch.
Bike in neutral with kickstand down.

Key ON
Trickle Charger to SMALL posts on Solenoid.
Bike turns over like mad.
But - no start.

Removed Compression Release Control Unit
part 32910-24B10 under pillion seat

check it per Suzuki & Clymer manual
involves lots of wires to test
but I think I did it right
it FAILED both tests
reading 2.9 volts continuously

so I ordered a new one from Dealer
I hope that it is the problem
that I cooked it with intermittent connections trying to fix the Starter Switch
won't know until part shows up on Monday

dwd58
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Re: starter switch AND starter solenoid - help please

Post by dwd58 »

Also check battery connections, even if they look good, sometimes they aren't making a good contact.

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DrAlloway
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Re: starter switch AND starter solenoid - help please

Post by DrAlloway »

I am NOT crazy (well, not on this issue at least) !!

on a VS1400 there is a click under the pillion seat, when the Key is turned on

this is only noticed when "priming the float bowel"
that is:
Kickstand UP, in Neutral, Clutch OUT
but NOT Starter Button
now, Key ON

click under pillion seat

now Stater Button
fuel pump clicks until float bowel is full

then, Clutch IN
bike starts nicely

I need somebody who ACTUALLY OWNS a VS1400 to confirm this - so others on this site will accept reality, please.

Pretty such this is the B circuit in De-Comp Solenoid.
definitely NOT the starter Relay

still struggling to get bike to start

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DrAlloway
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Re: starter switch AND starter solenoid - help please

Post by DrAlloway »

Excellent - thank you.

I know my Starter Switch is dead (I have the pieces in hand).

Under the "prime float bowel" conditions
when I turn the Key ON
there is NO click under the pillion seat

I tested the old De-Comp Solenoid (as best I could with multi-meter) and it failed both tests (only 2.9 volts).

I bought a NEW De-Comp Solenoid (from Dealer) and it tested Good.
{{ my multi-meter has a safety circuit, I think, so it hesitates and does not see the 0.2 and 0.7 second delays
but it shows 12.6 volts in both tests - so I think it is Good }}

Looking at the starter circuit diagram, it seems that the Y/B wire to De-Comp circuit B (the 0.2 sec delay) must be BAD.

Does this make sense ??

This Y/B wire comes directly from the Starter Solenoid.

Spacecoast
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Re: starter switch AND starter solenoid - help please

Post by Spacecoast »

Its my understanding that the decomp control unit is what operates the delay activity associated with the decomp solenoid unit. When you push the start button, the decomp solenoid will close, the starter will begin to spin, and then the solenoid will open back up...and bike starts

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DrAlloway
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Re: starter switch AND starter solenoid - help please

Post by DrAlloway »

Do you know what makes the click sound ??

Because my bike won't start and the click sound is gone.

When I was trying to fix my Starter Button Switch, I jumped it several times - and bike started nicely.

But, I think I tried jumping it too much - and connection was iffy, so a lot of sparking and incomplete connections -
and
thereby killed something

I have tested the Starter Solenoid - good.
And De-Comp Control Unit - new one is good also (I am pretty sure)

But
I don't even see a De-Comp Solenoid in the Starter Circuit Diagram.

I seems I have been sloppy with terminology, calling the De-Comp Control Unit a Solenoid, you also ??

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DrAlloway
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Re: starter switch AND starter solenoid - help please

Post by DrAlloway »

I have another 2004 vs1400 that does start and runs great - that will be for sale after I transfer a few more goodies from old to new bike.

It will definitely help if the new bike does start.

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Re: starter switch AND starter solenoid - help please

Post by Spacecoast »

DrAlloway wrote: But
I don't even see a De-Comp Solenoid in the Starter Circuit Diagram.

I seems I have been sloppy with terminology, calling the De-Comp Control Unit a Solenoid, you also ??
http://www.cheapcycleparts.com/oemparts ... electrical
That link is to a 2005 model...see item #24...decomp control unit. Basically it operates the solenoid unit. The solenoid unit just pulls the cable and makes a loud click when it comes together.

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Herb
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Re: starter switch AND starter solenoid - help please

Post by Herb »

Ok, I just went out to my 99. I has sat for 3 weeks without being ran. I have the fuel pump relay jumpered so as soon as I turn the key on the pump starts priming the carbs. I also have the side covers off so I can see and hear what is going on.

I turned on the key, the only thing I heard was the pump running, waited until the pump stopped, turned the key off and then back on, no click under the seat. Turned the key off and on 6 times, never got a click, from anywhere. Started the bike, fired right up.

I would say that whatever is making that click is why the bike isn't starting. Find out what it is, and why it is doing it, and you will find the no start problem.

BTW, the decomp control unit is only supposed to come into play when the starter button is pushed. It opens the exhaust valves for .7 sec and after .2 seconds it starts the engine spinning, after the delay the thing kicks the decomp solenoid out and the bike, is supposed to, start. It isn't supposed to do ANYTHING else. I would say that you have a wiring issue that is causing the click and you need to figure that out.

There are a set of tests for the decomp control in the book, in the 88-04 manual it starts on page 277, but you have to watch the meter close and have an analog meter, a digital will not react quickly enough to see the timers work.

Page 268 has the block diagram of the internals of the decomp unit.

I would start by putting my hand on different components and see if I can feel the click. Then figure out what it is and when it is SUPPOSED to work and what works it. Then you can find out why it is working when it isn't supposed to.
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DrAlloway
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Re: starter switch AND starter solenoid - help please

Post by DrAlloway »

Here is the Starter Circuit diagram for vs1400

Image

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DrAlloway
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Re: starter switch AND starter solenoid - help please

Post by DrAlloway »

Studying carefully this Starter Circuit and based on my various tests

I have a New Suspect >> the Sidestand Relay

I did not know there even was such a thing.

?? does anybody know where it is ??

I am guessing it is under the pillion seat near the Starter Solenoid and that it will CLICK under "prime fuel bowel" conditions.

?? right ??

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Herb
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Re: starter switch AND starter solenoid - help please

Post by Herb »

No that is not quite correct. The sidestand relay only works when the sidestand is up or the trans is in neutral. When either of those conditions is met a ground is applied to the relay allowing power to the kill switch, when the kill switch is in the run position it allows power to the start button AND to the coils. When the start button is pushed it allows power to the clutch switch AND the fuel pump relay, when the clutch switch is in the open position, clutch out, the power only goes to the fuel pump relay, this diagram leaves out the wire to the fuel pump relay which is a white with red stripe attached to the yellow green power from the start button. When the clutch switch is closed, clutch handle pulled in, then power goes to the decomp control and energizes the decomp solenoid then the starter motor.

While the relay does energize when the key is turned on, trans in neutral or kickstand down, it shouldn't make any noise, neither of mine ever have.

I am not sure where the relay is, but you are probably correct, at least I don't remember any other relays on the bike.

Look for one with 4 wires, orange/blue, 2 orange/yellow, and one green. It appears that it is the only relay with that color combination. The orange/yellow wires are power from the ignition fuse, the green wire is the ground from the sidestand switch and/or the neutral switch that operates the relay coil, and the orange blue is power out to the kill switch.

If you jumper the orange/blue wire to an orange/yellow and the engine starts, the relay is the problem. Just make sure it is in neutral...

A quick check as to that making the noise is to put it in gear, with the sidestand down, then turn on the ignition switch, if it doesn't click, put the kickstand up or put it in neutral and it should click.

BTW, the diagram you posted has an issue. It shows a black/red wire from the sidestand/neutral relay to the kill switch. I have 2 separate wiring diagrams, one for an 05 and one for a 90, both of them show that as an orange/blue wire.

Both of the diagrams I have show the black/red as the power out of the decomp controller to the decomp solenoid.

I hope this helps and I didn't confuse the issue with my explanation...
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DrAlloway
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Re: starter switch AND starter solenoid - help please

Post by DrAlloway »

Some Progress::

The Ignition Fuse #3 was blown !!

I had checked ALL the fuses early on and they were all good.
However, after cooking something I kept checking only the Main #4 and it was good.
I did not know there were TWO fuses in the Starter Circuit until I kept staring at the Diagram above.

So, this morning I checked Ignition Fuse #3 and sure enough - dead.
replaced it and now the leads INSIDE the Starter Button spark again
progress

However, the bike does not turn over from jumping the Starter Button.
It used to, but, now it does not.
?? next mystery to solve

BTW: after replacing Ignition Fuse #3 the CLICK has returned
it is the smaller electric component Next To the DeComp Control Unit (under the pillion seat)
you can put your finger on it and feel the click
I think this is the Sidestand Relay.

When bike in "prime float bowel" mode, then, Key ON and this Relay does definitely CLICK.

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Rick
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Re: starter switch AND starter solenoid - help please

Post by Rick »

Pretty good read. I didn't know that about this bike.

Thanks guys! :cheers:

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